Saturday, February 03, 2007

Is Lucifer the Brother of Jesus?

The above statement is often used by anti-Mormon detractors in an effort to make the LDS Church appear to be a non-Christian sect or cult. But it serves to highlight a significant difference between Bible doctrine and the views of "orthodox Christians." The Bible clearly indicates that God the Father is the father of the spirits of all mankind, and that both Jesus and Lucifer are also among his sons. "Orthodox Christians" do not accept this Biblical doctrine.

In contrast, Lauer-day Saints believe Jesus, Lucifer and all mankind have a common Heavenly Father. The Bible clearly teaches that all men and women who have ever lived in heaven and on earth are the spirit offspring of our eternal Heavenly Father. Paul taught, "For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device" (Acts 17:28,29).

We see in Luke 3:38 that Adam is a son of God. It is only logical that we, who are descended from him, are members of the same family. The author of Hebrews affirms the brotherhood of all men by stating that we are to be "in subjection unto the Father of Spirits" (Heb. 12:9, see Num. 16:22). The book of I John gives account of our relationship to the Father: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God" (1 John 3:2). Paul speaks of "one God and Father of all (Eph. 4:6).

We learn from the book of Job that "there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them" (Job 1:6). Job makes it clear that as one of the Sons of God, Satan was recognized by the Lord in their presence (Job 1:7- 12,2:1-6). He fell from his heavenly abode, (Luke 10:18, Rev. 12:7-9, Isa. 14:12-14), but that does not negate that he was once a literal "spirit" offspring or child of God. These scriptures clearly show that all of us are offspring of God, our Heavenly Father--including those children who rebelled and followed Satan.

The critic will point to Colossians 1:16 as a prooftext that Jesus is the creator of all things in Heaven and earth and therefore cannot be Lucifer's brother. Such an erroneous interpretation is in sharp contradiction to the passages cited above and others on the subject. The scriptures are clear as to Jesus' creative role and his obedience to his Father's will, but Paul's point in Colossians is not to assert that God the Father did not have spirit children, but rather to emphasize the preeminence of Jesus as he did the will of the Father (v. 18).

That Jesus had a brother named Lucifer is not a new idea to Christians. Catholic writer Giovanni Papini quotes Lactantius, a Third Century Christian writer, from his apologetic work, Divinac Institutines 11.9:
Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks.

Papini concludes that, "According to Lactantius, Lucifer would have been nothing less than the brother of the logos, of the word, ie. of the second person of the trinity" (Giovanni Papini, The Devil, p. 81).

Lucifer, or Satan of the Old and New Testaments, initially was in heaven but fell and took one third of the Hosts of Heaven with him (Isa. 14:12, Rev. 12:9). His fall from heaven was confirmed by the Savior (Luke 10:18). The Devil and his angels are most anxious to inhabit the bodies of mortals (Lk. 8:2633; Matt. 9:32). All the Savior did, has done and will do, is the antithesis of Lucifer, but both Jesus and Satan are offspring of God the Father, as are all members of the human family.

8 comments:

jonathan said...

Rather than debate your position that Jesus and Satan are brothers. I want to understand,

1) Why would anyone want to place their faith in the brother of satan, a dimished Christ?

2)Why would anyone want to elevate the devil to be an equal to God?

Wer62 said...

Jonathan,

Thank you for your question.

First let me ask, Does Cain being evil diminish Abel from being a goodly person?

When one understands that God the Father wants us to have our agency and has given us that agency even in the premotal life one does not have to question as you have here.

In the Bible it states we are "all" the offspring of God. Lucifer is included in that "all". Is Jesus Christ judged on the standard? Does it really matter who his brother may be or is there a different standard for you and me verses how Jesus is Judged? If Jesus Christ is judged on a different standard than we are then there is no justice in salvation. Therfore it matters not who is the brother of Jesus Christ. We as people are all brothers in Christ does that make Christ any less of a savior?

As for raising Lucifer. It is not a raising of Lucifer as he made his choice and was cast down just as Cain was cast out.

I for one am happy to know we have a righteous and just God.

Wer62

jonathan said...

The evil of one does not transfer to another. Each is called to account for his or her own sins.

Both Cain and Able were sons of Adam and inherited a sinful nature. Cain acted in his sinful nature; His brother Able sought after God and found Him through obedience in sacrificing to Him. They were brothers.

Now Jesus and Lucifer are not brothers. We are neither brother to Jesus or to Lucifer.

Jesus is God. [John 1:1]

Lucifer is a created heavenly being, now fallen.

Man is a created being in the image of God, also fallen but given the hope of being born spiritually through faith in Jesus.

In short, Bible-based Christianity understand the family relationships of God's household.

God, the Father. His only begotten Son, Jesus. Man, adopted sons and daughters, through faith. Angels are the hired servants. See Hebrews 1.

Wer62 said...

Jonathan Stated
The evil of one does not transfer to another. Each is called to account for his or her own sins.

Wer62 Replies
No one ever said it did!!! I am speaking in terms of a premortal choice. Somthing you seem to have ignored. There are consequences for any choice made and there are only 2 real choices. Right and Wrong. So you are correct when you say each are called into account for their own sins. This would include Jesus 'the' Christ if he had made any. The point being that Jesus could not justly take on our sin unless he went through the same process we do. Come to Earth, gain a body and live a sinless life. Without doing this there would be no justice in salvation. Jesus and Lucifer were both in Heaven, and Lucifer was cast down. This was because of his bad choice. No different that Cain and Able where Cain made a series of bad choices.

Jonathan Stated
Both Cain and Able were sons of Adam and inherited a sinful nature. Cain acted in his sinful nature; His brother Able sought after God and found Him through obedience in sacrificing to Him. They were brothers.

Wer62 Replies
Which still equates to CHOICE...

Jonathan Stated
Jesus is God. [John 1:1]

Wer62 Replies
Now you are shifting the argument to the Trinitarian belief system. Something that is not even in the Bible. Show me the word Trinity anywhere in the Bible... See my article Trinity Doctrine Exposed That stated you are shifting the focus to a different topic although I believe you are doing this because you believe that it is true. Jesus is the 'Son' of God. The Godhead is a three personages all in unity. Godhead is in the Bible and Trinity is not. Why you would as a Baptist follow Catholism's creed is beyond me. Your argument is negated in John 17:21-22. You are not trying to say that as we accept Christ we all meld into one personage are you?

Jonathan Stated
Lucifer is a created heavenly being, now fallen.

Wer62 Replies
And so are we created in spirit before we are born into our body. Just as Christ is the Son of God so we are all his Children. We all have a premortal existance. The Bible clearly indicates that God the Father is the father of the spirits of all mankind, and that both Jesus and Lucifer are also among his sons. [see original article]

Jonathan Stated
Man is a created being in the image of God, also fallen but given the hope of being born spiritually through faith in Jesus.

Wer62 Replies
Yes we as mortal man are created in the image of God, and Yes we have hope of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ Lucifer was cast down and has no hope because he will not be born into a mortal body. Again it came down to "choice". Remember Lucifer was cast down.

Jonathan Stated
In short, Bible-based Christianity understand the family relationships of God's household.

God, the Father. His only begotten Son, Jesus. Man, adopted sons and daughters, through faith. Angels are the hired servants. See Hebrews 1.

Wer62 Replies
What is not found in Hebrews chapter one is the word adopt. It proclaims that Jesus is the Son of God which is what I have been saying this entire time. However, there are numerous verses that state we are the children of God and that which was created as spirit which is in man. Num 16:22, Job 32:8, Ps 82:6, Eccl 12:7 Hosea 1:10, Mal 2:10, Matt 5:48, Matt 6:9, Acts 17:29, Rom 8:16, Eph 4:6. We are not adopted but clearly Children of God from the beginning.

Wer62

jonathan said...

In trying to stay close to the topic at hand, consider three Questions carefully.

1.) If we are all children of God, how do you interpret John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil...", when Jesus is speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees?

2.) If we are not adopted sons of God, how do you interpret Romans 8:15 "...you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.' "?

3.) If there was a pre-mortal existence and we are created as Spirits first and had a pre-mortal choice as your Faith teaches, how do you interpret Isaiah 44:2 "...the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb..."?

The verse does not say, '...And formed you before the womb,' It says, '...And formed you from the womb.'

The word from points to the origin or the beginning of something not the continuation of a something.

Unknown said...

Wow, that's a very circular argument. It goes down like this:

Heavenly Father is the father of all our spirits, INCLUDING Jesus Christ and Satan or Lucifer if you choose to call him that.

There is an eternal principle called freedom, amply addressed in the above comments - Satan choices to seek power and destruction of free will above the Father's plan. He lost and therefore suffered the consequences of being cast out.

Each of us comes with either the desire to do good or the desire to do evil. To simplify, the bully in the schoolyard just wants to pick on people, he likes it and enjoys the feeling of power rushing through his veins. Satan is a bully. Cain suffered great jealousy over Abel, he was more comfortable with Satan and the promises of absolute power, going for the short term goal over the Savior's promise of eternal life.

People make choices, it's as simple as that. There are those who embrace Satan and those who embrace and worship Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. I will never understand why one would choose the lesser over the greater.

Kimberly said...

Where are the backings of your beliefs? you say it is so but what of the word of God, where do you get your idea of pre-existence? not from bom, what book contains such a truth? what standard of truth do you have? The heart is deceiving.
The king folet sermon a sermon given at a funeral is to my knowing the beginning of this, where JS admits he can not use the bible as standard, and even says it is a chain to him to do so, that he has something better than a book, the holy spirit? sooo is that it, all or nothing on the foundation of the word of a man? I say in kindness and it is what it is.

Wer62 said...

Kimberly States:
Where are the backings of your beliefs?

Wer62 Responds
I think my article speaks for itself and is well documented. I made several references in the article. Did you not read them?

Kimberly States:
you say it is so but what of the word of God,

Wer62 Responds
I quoted my sources in the article. Now unless you do not consider the Bible to be the "word of God"? I even quoted Early Church Fathers to establish my case which is pre Nicean Creed.

As you know the LDS use what we call the Standard Works, which includes the Bible and Book of Mormon as the two mainstays of our religious information. To imply I did not use the word of God is a bit misleading.

Kimberly States:
where do you get your idea of pre-existence? not from bom, what book contains such a truth? what standard of truth do you have?

Wer62 Responds
I get my facts concerning pre-existence from my scriptures. Bible has several scriptures that piont to a pre-existent form or spirit form of man before an earthly one. So in answer to your question where do I get this information, The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and the D&C. These are also the standards of truth. Therefore they are also known to us a "the standard works".

Kimberly States:
The heart is deceiving.

Wer62 Responds
What are you trying to imply here? Please I have been extremely clear and you have yet to refute to facts in the article and you want to imply I am decieved?

Kimberly States:
The king folet sermon a sermon given at a funeral is to my knowing the beginning of this, where JS admits he can not use the bible as standard, and even says it is a chain to him to do so, that he has something better than a book, the holy spirit? sooo is that it, all or nothing on the foundation of the word of a man? I say in kindness and it is what it is.

Wer62 Responds
You shift arguments faster than you prove me incorrect. First off Bible is mentioned in the King Follet Discourse 5 times and gestures to his Bible 1 time. Here are the quotes:

1. "I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him. And if I can bring you to him, all persecutions against me will cease; you will know that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and I am going to tell you the designs of God for the human race and why he interferes with the affairs of man. "

2. "In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I am going to shorten the quotes for time sake from this point forward:

3. "If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible."

4. "I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. And I think there are many "wise men" here who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator today."

Question, have you ever studied anything outside the Bible? Just a question...

5. "I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible, Berosheit"

6. "We say that God himself is a self-existing God. Who told you so? It is correct enough, but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It doesn't say so in the Hebrew; it says God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so he became a living body."

Not once did he say it was a "chain for him to do so" The only time chain was used was in context of translation of the Bible from language to language. Something you clearly have not put much thought into. I suggest reading your Bible on "bearing false witness" and fully understand what penalty that carries. It is clear that you have not read the King Follet Discourses with any intent of knowledge or you would not have made the comments you have made. You have however shifted the topic significantly.

Kimberly States:
sooo is that it, all or nothing on the foundation of the word of a man?

Wer62 Responds:
This is a spurious argument and really not worth commenting. That stated, He did not say what you think he said. He mentioned the Bible both in a positive light and mentioned translation errors. In no way does Joseph Smith negate scripture to put him above scripture. You have not studied it for yourself and used some outside source of twisted context to draw your conclusions. Please read this for yourself and see if you draw the same conclusions.

Kimberly States:
I say in kindness and it is what it is.

Wer62 Responds:
Please try to come back to the original topic and prove your case. I have given references please do so in your case also. I also say these things in love and kindness.

Wer62