Monday, August 21, 2006

Trinity Doctrine Exposed! (A Brief Overview)

The first vision of Joseph Smith represents to Latter-daySaints the beginning of the revelation of God to man in the final dispensation. Knowledge pertaining to the nature of God - his character, personality, divine attributes, powers, and purposes - have been known to latter-day prophets, and some of the knowledge obviously stands in contrast to what many in the Christian world would believe about God and about man's relationship to Deity.

1: The Trinity - An LDS Belief? (Godhead):

The answer to this question depends entirely on the inquirer's definition of "trinity". Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines the word trinity as "the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The Random House College Dictionary adds a second alternative to this definition which allows also "the threefold personality of one Divine Being". Although Webster's definition would be considered a valid LDS description of the Godhead, the second Random House alternative would be considered by Latter-day Saints to be an apostate view.

Today, some people assert that a belief in a mysterious unknowable Trinitarian god is essential to a claim of Christianity even though this requirement is not biblical. At times they use Colossians 2:9 as a proof text to support their Trinitarian concept: "in him[Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Though this scripture could appear to vindicate the belief in the trinity, the Greek text does not justify this interpretation. The Greek word translated as Godhead in this verse is "theotes." This word actually means "divinity" and is translated as such in many modern Bible translations. Accurately translated, this verse should read "in Christ the fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form" {See New International Version}. Therefore, the qualities of Godhead are manifest to us in Christ but Christ is not God the Father.

It is important to note the word "trinity" does not appear anywhere in the King James Version nor any other reputable translation of the Bible. The present Trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the Bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term {Acts 17:29; Rom1:20; Col. 2:9} and the preferred title in the LDS Church.{1} References to the Godhead as the trinity are found in LDS Church literature {2} but such usage clearly denotes a three-person Godhead and not a one-being concept.The latter concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity", seems to have originated under the influence of the Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. {3} A study of Christianity prior to 325AD reveals that the LDS interpretation of the Godhead was then the prevailing belief. Church fathers such as Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Origen, Athanasius, and others argued that the Godhead consisted of separate Beings. {4} The first person to use the term trinity appears to have been Tertullian in about 200AD. He used the term to refer to ideas which mentioned three and one.

Over a century later, in 325AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine convened a delegation composed of about one-sixth of the bishops from throughout the Roman Empire. The stated purpose of the Council of Nicea as it was called, was to achieve unity among the factions that existed then. Three major groups with differing views regarding God's nature at length became two factions. The eastern (Arian) Christian view favored a three-God concept while the western (Roman) view favored one supreme God to whom all others were subordinated. Under extreme intimidation by the emperor, the Arian group was compelled to yield to the Roman view. Araus and the bishops and priests who opposed the Nicean Creed and the "one substance" terminology adopted by the council were exiled. Constantine, in order to ensure future unity, also commanded that the writings of these men be burned. {5}

The Nicean Creed stated that there was "one God and one Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God" who was "one substance with the Father." The Athanasian creed, which was an outgrowth of the Nicean Creed, typifies the modern "orthodox" concept of the trinity. It speaks of an "incomprehensible" God which is completely foreign to Christ's teachings. Jesus taught that "this life eternal that 'we' might . . . know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom God had sent"{John 17:3; see also Jeremiah 31:34; John 8:19; 14:7-9, Hebrews 8:10-11, 1 John 2:3-4, and 1 John 3:1-2, 6; 5:20}

Thus, the accepted Trinitarian concept of deity is the result of a compromise achieved without the benefit of apostles, prophets, or revelation and arrived at only when extreme pressure was exerted by a then pagan emperor. The true concept of God is not that of an "unknown" or unknowable God {Acts 17:23} but one whose offspring we are {Acts 17:28-29} and in whose image we were created {Gen 1:26-27}. Our Heavenly Father loves us and wants us to know him and become like him {Matt 5:48; John 3:1-2}

Conclusion - The trinity that "mainstream Christianity" follows today of the three in one concept is not of God and never was. It doesn't follow scriptural references in the Bible and was not brought forth through apostles or prophets and therefore is doctrines of men. The LDS get hammered with accusations of following the doctrines of men but in reality those that judge do not look in their own scriptures to find out if the doctrine preached is actually truth.

---------------------------------------
Footnotes:
{1} History of the Church, 6:473; Lectures on Faith, Lecture 5; pp 58-59
{2} Articles of Faith, pp. 39-41; Journal of Discourses, 6:95; History of the Church, vol1, Intro., pp 80-81
{3} History of the Churh, vol 1, Intro. pp 82-87
{4} see J.D.N Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, pp. 93, 96, 129, 233
{5} James K. and Rose Seastrand, Journey to Eternal Life and istratios Along the Way, p 132; History of the Church vol 1, Intro., pp 79-90



22 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mormonism exposed! A philosophy that bases its complete definition of God from the modern revelation of a single man.

The real question is do you trust the Bible that is clear that there is only one God. Christianity has always been a monotheistic religion. Man's inability to comprehend the nature of God does not change that nature.

Or trusting one man's vision. He alone as the sole witness. Not two or three, but the only witness. Many books in the bible proclaim that there is only one God.

What do you trust the Bible [including the super majority of early Christian bishops' interpretation of that Book] or a man [self-proclaimed prophet, seer, and revelator]?

Wer62 said...

jonathan said...
Mormonism exposed! A philosophy that bases its complete definition of God from the modern revelation of a single man.

Wer62 Replies:
You're right Constantine the single man who pressured other men to orginize the Trinity doctrine. Doctrines of men. You ignore the following points in your statement:

1. It is important to note the word "trinity" does not appear anywhere in the King James Version nor any other reputable translation of the Bible.

2. The present Trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the Bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best.

3. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term {Acts 17:29; Rom1:20; Col. 2:9} and the preferred title in the LDS Church.{1}

4. concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity", seems to have originated under the influence of the Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. {3}

5. A study of Christianity prior to 325AD reveals that the LDS interpretation of the Godhead was then the prevailing belief. Church fathers such as Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Origen, Athanasius, and others argued that the Godhead consisted of separate Beings. {4}

6. The term Trinity did not come into existance until around 200AD

7. The Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine convened a delegation and extreme intimidation by the emperor, the Arian group was compelled to yield to the Roman view. (See Point 9 as well)

8. the Nicean Creed, typifies the modern "orthodox" concept of the trinity. It speaks of an "incomprehensible" God which is completely foreign to Christ's teachings. Jesus taught that "this life eternal that 'we' might . . . know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom God had sent"{John 17:3; see also Jeremiah 31:34; John 8:19; 14:7-9, Hebrews 8:10-11, 1 John 2:3-4, and 1 John 3:1-2, 6; 5:20}

9. Trinitarian concept of deity is the result of a compromise achieved without the benefit of apostles, prophets, or revelation and arrived at only when extreme pressure was exerted by a then pagan emperor. (See Point 7 as well)

10. The true concept of God is not that of an "unknown" or unknowable God {Acts 17:23} but one whose offspring we are {Acts 17:28-29} and in whose image we were created {Gen 1:26-27}. Our Heavenly Father loves us and wants us to know him and become like him {Matt 5:48; John 3:1-2}

So Jonathan your are correct "do you trust the Bible?

jonathan said...
Christianity has always been a monotheistic religion

Wer62 Replies:
You can say that we are polytheists but you would be incorrect. As a LDS Member I refuse to accept this description of our religious beliefs based on the term meaning we worship multiple gods as applied to Pagans who worshiped many gods. Our worship of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are primarily channeled to the Father. The major role in creation of the earth delated by the Father to Jesus Christ. (Heb. 1:2; Col 1:16) Jesus also governs the affairs of mankind as the Old Testament Jehovah, then came to earth in the meridian of time in the role of Savior and REdeemer. He will return in a glorious Second Coming and rule as King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev 19:12) He will judge all mankind. (John 5:22-29) When he has completed and perfected his work, he will present it to the Father, then be crowned with glory and given power to reign forever (D & C 76:106-108) as the Father's appointed "heir of all things" (Heb 1:2)

Yet Christ has directed us to acknowledge God the Father's overall authority over man, since he is the literal Father of our spirits (Heb 12:9; Matt 5:48; Acts 17:29) The savior himself instructed us to address our prayers to the Father (Matt 6:9)and to always pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ (3 Nephi 18:19-24) and this is why I say that we primarily worship the Father.

What about other gods? Bible Scripture speaks of a "God of gods and Lord of lords" (Deut 10:17 , [see also] Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Ps 97:9; 135:5; 136:2 138:1; Dan 11:36)and Paul taught that while there were many gods, mortals of this earth should worship only God the Father (1 Cor 8:5-6; Col 3:17)

The LDS do in fact worship God the Father in the name of Christ as is taught in both ancient and modern scripture (Matt 6:9; John 15:16; 2 Nephi 32:9; Jacob 4:5; 3 Nephi 18:19; Moroni 10:4; D&C 18:40; 20:19, 29, Moses 1:17)

The LDS recognize that there is aonenes of unity and purpose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (John 17:20-23). Evangelicals, Non Denominationalists and Other Protestant Trinity beliving sects believe that the Father Son and the Holy Ghost in some manner which they are unable to "comprehend" or satifactorily define one God, and hence they call themselves monothiestic. Yet they attempt to play word games, asserting that the LDS are polythiestic in their worship of those same hree beings. It is hypocritical to call Protestants monothiests, and LDS polythiests since we worship the "Godhead" in the same manner they worship the trinity.

jonathan said...
trusting one man's vision. He alone as the sole witness. Not two or three, but the only witness. Many books in the bible proclaim that there is only one God.

Wer62 Replies:
Excuse me, we have 11 witnesses of the gold plates, 3 special witnesses who experianced an angel to show it to them. Are you going to exclude Moses on the mount since he had no witnesses there and just some stone tablets? Talk about a double standard.

I will say this jonathan, I do like your reasoned responses. While I do not agree with your philosophies of men. I can respect your methods. Thank you.

Wer62

Anonymous said...

Thank You ! Ed, I appreciate it.

Anonymous said...

First apologies to wer62. I have to clear up one thing before responding to the one man claims, etc. In a later post.

I have never met either wer62 or rick b. And as for Lurker, I have no idea were his or her remarks come from. I have only recently, last
two days even seen their blogs.

I attend a Baptist church [not that many choices of non-LDS church bodies] in a northern Utah community. I do not want to give out too much personal information over a blog and hope this is enough proof that we have never met before. My real first name is Jonathan though.

Rick b. I will spend some time contacting you via email this weekend.

Wer62 said...

Jonathan...

No appologies required.. I understand.

Thanks,

Wer62

Anonymous said...

Fact Check

1. Nicene creed does not use the word trinity.

2. Third Eccumenical Council of Nicea finalized the wording and order no further changes in 381 AD.

3. Athanasian Creed was written around the year 500 AD and was never voted to be an creed of the Catholic church. It was never used by the Eastern Orthodox church. It is considered only a statement of 1 bishop delivering a summation of the doctrine of trinity.


The entire creed can be read at the following website:

Nicene Creed

Anonymous said...

I am not sure how to briefly respond to the single man influence claim.

It may be as you state that the Emperor forced his beliefs on the bishops, but find in the creed anything not supported from the Bible. Now, JS, jr. was the only one to see the first vision, the two "so called" personages of flesh and bone. No one else saw it, nor has anyone else seen such a scene. WHY? is that, because it is not truth.

Stephen look up into to heaven [acts 7:55] and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the glory of God no mention of a body for the Father.

The Nicene creed although useful in determining the early belief of Christians about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is a basic statement of the Christian Faith. It speaks of Jesus' crucifixation, etc. So the early believers could more easily identify heresy.

The purpose was not to define God, but to teach in a concise statement the basic beliefs of the Christian Faith.

rick b said...

As I have stated before, JS has said, No man can see God and live without the priesthood.

Yet some how JS saw God and lived without the priesthood, Why is this?

Was it a special rule only for him?

rick b said...

Hello,
I did a very in depth reply on the trinity on my blog, I figure it will be easier for people if they so choose to just simply go their and read it for themselves. Rick b



> trinity

Wer62 said...

jonathan said...
It may be as you state that the Emperor forced his beliefs on the bishops, but find in the creed anything not supported from the Bible.

Wer62 Replies:
Thank you for supporting my stance on Constantine, as for Biblical standards lets look at that more closely.

How about: Old Version"being of one substance with the Father;" This not Biblically supported. Anywhere in the Bible where it says I and the Father are one is not stating in substance..

Modern Version "of one being with the Father" Again nothing in the Bible states that they are one "being". Even where it says I and the Father are one, can certainly mean "one in purpose" since there are many other verses that show God and Christ in differnt locations. [Example Jesus Baptism, The Right hand of God ect ect.] There is more evidence they are seperate beings not the "same being" This creed is busted on the one lie that it contains. A lie spread by Constantine a pagan using Greek philosophy.

[see the my section "Satan has always used some truth to mask the lies" of this comment for an example]

jonathan said...
Now, JS, jr. was the only one to see the first vision, the two "so called" personages of flesh and bone. No one else saw it, nor has anyone else seen such a scene. WHY? is that, because it is not truth.

Wer62 Replies:
Really, Here are numerous entries of Jesus Christ as the right hand of God. [Acts 7:55-56; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; Rom 8:34; Col 3:1; Heb 10:12, 1 Pet 3:22; Mosiah 5:9; Alma 28:12; Ether 12:4; Moro 7:27; D&C 76:23; Moses 7:57] You are correct in the fact that these verses are implied. When I sit at the right hand of someone else it is implied that the person I am sitting next to is simular in nature than myself. God himself having a "hand" just like we have "hands" for example.

jonathan said...
Stephen look up into to heaven [acts 7:55] and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the glory of God no mention of a body for the Father.

Wer62 Replies:
Were we not made in the image of God? [Gen 1:27] How do we now image means an exacting likeness Read Gen 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:" Conclusion God looks like Jesus and the rest of us. He however is perfected and we are less than perfect.

jonathan said...
The Nicene creed although useful in determining the early belief of Christians about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is a basic statement of the Christian Faith.

Wer62 Replies:
That was the point of my article was to say this was not an "early Christian Belief by going back further than the Nicene Creed to identify what was taught closer to Christ in his day. You have not sufficiantly addressed the fact that a Pagan ruler declares himself a Bishop and leans on authorized Bishops to his pagan way of thinking probably coming from Greek philosophies.

jonathan said...
It speaks of Jesus' crucifixation, etc. So the early believers could more easily identify heresy.

The purpose was not to define God, but to teach in a concise statement the basic beliefs of the Christian Faith.

Wer62 Replies:

Satan has always used some truth to mask the lies he has created over time.

Let us read the text and see what God said would happen to Adam if he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then compare it to what the devil said would happen. Then we will see what God observed after the forbidden fruit was eaten.

The account in question is found in Gen 2:17-17 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The beast, or the devil, then entered the garden and talked to Eve.In Genesis 3:4-5 we read:
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

In this passage we see that the serpent truly did mix truth and falsehood. He told one lie and two truths:

your eyes shall be opened, (true)

you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil, (true)

ye shall not surely die, (lie)

Adam and Eve then ate of the fruit of the tree. What happened? Just as the devil said, their eyes were opened; they realized they were naked and hid. Then, just as the devil had said, they became as one of the Gods. Verse 22 relates the word of God confirming that this portion of the serpent's statement was true, not a lie: "And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us to know good and evil."

-------
Conclusion: My original conclusion still holds:

Conclusion - The trinity that "mainstream Christianity" follows today of the three in one concept is not of God and never was. It doesn't follow scriptural references in the Bible and was not brought forth through apostles or prophets and therefore is doctrines of men. The LDS get hammered with accusations of following the doctrines of men but in reality those that judge do not look in their own scriptures to find out if the doctrine preached is actually truth.

Wer62

Anonymous said...

If the bible states that "The Father and I are one." It means what it says that they are one. One is unity without distinction in substance, sameness. Regardless of mincing words like Godhead, being, and substance, It does not change Mormon doctrine which teaches that
Jesus--both body and Spirit--is a created God and did not always exist and that is a false doctrine of men and a heresy. By the way, even though I carefully read and have limited knowledge of Creeds, I do not claim creeds or other simple sayings, Nicene or otherwise, if it is not stated directly in the Bible then I do not believe it. Although,
many of these simple statements and Creeds do contain truth, they are not scripture or the word of God. Only the 66 Books in the Bible
are the authoritive word of God. Clearly, the bible does teach that there is only one God in both new and old testament [Deut 6:4; Gal
3:20].

wer62 stated:You are correct in the fact that these verses are implied. Why would so many visions of the heavely realm were Jesus is clearing seen and identified is there never an implicit description of his twin Father similar to Joseph Smith's first vision. Because it just is not truth. Only the Son as seen the Father. [John 6:46] Again you have successfully proved that Joseph Smith, jr is the only person to have every seen the physical body of God the Father and described it as flesh and bones. It is his pressure and faith in his vision that defines the nature of God for mormons. Much more exerted force than any self proclaimed bishop could ever have. If not please point to a verse in scripture that clearly states anyone other than Brother Joseph as seeing the physical likeness of the Father's personage? Not implied but implicit. Did the any of the 8 or 11 witnesses see the first vision?

Definition
pol·y·the·ism: 1. the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods. 2.The worship of or belief in more than one god.

Creator. Who is the creator of this world? God the Father? God the Son? God the Holy Spirit? All three? What is the image of God we are created from? Clearly as a Father he is male. Are we then to assume that women are created from the image of His eternal mate? Belief in a God, His Son, Holy Spirit, and now Goddess. If it looks like polytheism, then it probably is.

Wer62 said...

jonathan said...
If the bible states that "The Father and I are one." It means what it says that they are one. One is unity without distinction in substance, sameness. Regardless of mincing words like Godhead, being, and substance,

Wer62 Replies...
REALLY!, Let's look at a couple of other verses that put "one" in the proper relation and proves thru scripture that one means one in purpose and not one in being or substance. Jesus Explains further the John 10:30 "I and my Father are one" meaning in these verses"

One simply means "one in purpose; unity"

[John 17:9-11]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which bthou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Are we really going to be one with the father as in "one substance or one being?"

[John 17:21 & 22]
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The meaning is clear, they are to be one in purpose not one being or one substance. Are you really stating we are going to meld into one being with the Father and the Son? Are you really saying this?

The question remains is this the only example of the word "one" being used as in "one in purpose or unity."

[Rom. 12: 5]
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Clearly this means we are "one in Christ" one body but many beings. This blows the "Trinity" argument out of the water.

But wait there is more.

How about Adam and Eve and marriage.

[Gen 2:24]
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

We certainly are not saying that man and woman become "one being" they are two that are one in purpose.

I think you get the point.

jonathan said...
Jesus--both body and Spirit--is a created God and did not always exist and that is a false doctrine of men and a heresy.

Wer62 Replies...
It really depends on your interpretation of "everlasting to everlasting." Depends if you believe in a pre-existense. It depends if you believe that Jesus is the "Son" of God and by defintion a creation of God the Father. I have articles I am working on that will cover all this so I will not go into detail here. To say that it is heresy well I would love to hear a more detailed account of why you believe this.

jonathan said...
I do not claim creeds or other simple sayings, Nicene or otherwise, if it is not stated directly in the Bible then I do not believe it.

Wer62 Replies...
If this is the case then you are fighting for something you "do not take as scripture or neccessarily believe? While you go onto say that the creeds contain truth, I did not say they did not contain some truth.

I even stated in my prevoius comment that satan uses some truth mixed with lie[s]. Using the following:

The beast, or the devil, then entered the garden and talked to Eve.In Genesis 3:4-5 we read:
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

In this passage we see that the serpent truly did mix truth and falsehood. He told one lie and two truths:

your eyes shall be opened, (true)

you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil, (true)

ye shall not surely die, (lie)


jonathan said...
they are not scripture or the word of God. Only the 66 Books in the Bible are the authoritive word of God.

Wer62 Replies...
This is a whole new debate topic on its own.. ;-) I will refrain from comment except to say I do not agree with this.

jonathan said...
Clearly, the bible does teach that there is only one God in both new and old testament [Deut 6:4; Gal
3:20].

Cross Reference for Galations [1 Tim 2:5]:
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Meaning we are judged by God the Father and Jesus is our avocate to the Father. (again you helped support my case.)

As for Deut 6:4, do you know believe the entire bible. This states that Jesus is Lord of Lords.

[1 Cor 8:5-6]

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Clearly again, Jesus is over us and our mediator with the Father. These verses clearly show the distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ. To say in Deut 6.4 is only stating the obvious that there is no other savior than Jesus Christ as he is the Lord of Lords and we should "love" him with all our heart.

jonathan said...
Only the Son as seen the Father. [John 6:46] Again you have successfully proved that Joseph Smith, jr is the only person to have every seen the physical body of God the Father and described it as flesh and bones.

Wer62 Replies...
Jonathan, you make me laught.. This verse does not say that only Christ has seen God. It says those "of God" meaning the priesthood.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath aseen the Father.

jonathan said...
Again you have successfully proved that Joseph Smith, jr is the only person to have every seen the physical body of God the Father and described it as flesh

Wer62 Replies...
Yet you continue to ignore verses in the Bible that prove just this point the God the Father has a body.

{John 5:19]
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he aseeth the bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus could not come down here and be our savior unless he has seen the Father do it before him. Therefore we can conclude the God the Father has a body

[Gnisis 1:26]
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

We are made after the image of God the Father and Jesus Christ. People have seen Jesus Christ and if we have seen the Father why would we need "faith"? Even Moses saw the "finger" of god. So other prophets have seen at least body parts of God.

So while the witnesses did not see the "First Vision" niether did any of the people who followed Moses see the "finger" of God. I am sure there were people that accused Moses of carving the 10 commandments himself instead of seeing the finger of God do it for Moses. There is evidence that God the Father has a body for those that choose to see it.

If you notice I pulled all references from the Bible in which you call the 66 books authorized by God.

Wer62

rick b said...

Ed said
In this passage we see that the serpent truly did mix truth and falsehood. He told one lie and two truths:

your eyes shall be opened, (true)

you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil, (true)

ye shall not surely die, (lie)


Ed, You are incorrect on the 3rd point being a lie, Our spirts died, right then and there. Our physical Bodies Died slowly over years. So it is a true statement. Rick b

Wer62 said...

Rick Quoted me and Stated the Following:

Quote: ye shall not surely die, (lie)

Ed, You are incorrect on the 3rd point being a lie, Our spirts died, right then and there. Our physical Bodies Died slowly over years. So it is a true statement. Rick b

Wer62 Replies: Hi Rick, That is what the statement says is a lie. You seem to have a problem understanding negitive sentences. When it says "ye shall NOT surely die" in modern language means "you will not die" and that is a lie. You are correct, their spirts died on the spot. (thus the need for repentence) and yes they no longer lived in the Garden of Eden where life was perfected and therefore YES I agree their bodies died slower.

We agree on this point... (mark it on your calendar) the only part I disagree with you on is the fact I was wrong since we are saying the same thing. ;-)

Wer62

Anonymous said...

bills i take it your either roaming gnome or davinci. add to that i on second though i talked to roaming gnome earlier and he was their at home. it must be davinci. why do you insist in calling me a loser ? you and ed never answered my questions you keep dodging them like a plague. and i am geting the feeling this might be lurking again with deceit and lies. you are going to burn in hell with the rest of the mormons who refuse to belive the truth.

Wer62 said...

Anon @ August 30, 2006 2:38 AM Stated:

you are going to burn in hell with the rest of the mormons who refuse to belive the truth.


Wer62 Replies:
So, you will judge all on the actions of one? Wow.. That is a bit judgemental

rick b said...

Anonymous said...

Who ever this person is, is the liar. Ed we have been down this road before have we not. someone acting like they want to reply as me.

well bills is a real person, this is another LDS person, that is known by sharon, she as well as bill mc, has had dealings with bills. he has in the past been on my blog. so who ever lurking is, is I suspect thia anon, person, nothing more then a coward who hides in the shadows.

lurker never showed up to my church, in reality, what could they say. they lied and they know they did. coward. if you really know me as you claim, why not tell me your name? what are you so afraid of? rick b

Anonymous said...

Oneness with God versus Oneness of God.

Oneness with God.
John chapter 17 is a series of prayers by Jesus praying about Relationships. First prayering for Himself (1-5), next His disciples (6-19), and finally for all believers (20-26). Jesus wants all to share a relationship God. He desires us to have single devotion with God as He demonstrated with His life.

The Bible uses the word one in many places to describe unity, but it does also use it to describe singleness.

Oneness of God.
[1 John 5:7 New King James Translation]
(7.) For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.


The Physical Body of God is manifested in Jesus.
[Hebrews 1:1-4 New King James Translation]
(1.) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, (2.) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; (3.) who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (4.) having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Jesus is the express, clearly indicated and explicit, image of God. Any finger, face, or other body part seen by man is that of Jesus.

personal note: I prefer the New King James Translation because it capitalizes all pronouns that reference God and uses modern pronouns.

Wer62 said...

Jonathan,

Just to let you know I have not dropped the conversation, but instead I am going to write a whole new article based on your last comment. I think it is an important enough topic to do so.

Thank you for your reasoned response. I am about half way done with the article.

I do want to piont out however that the version 1 John 5:7 really doesn't help your case, and it clearly does not say (being or substance) in fact verse 8 clearly states "...these three agree in one" which proves more my point than yours.

It is no different than the John 10:30 where it says I and the father are one [paraphrased - see my previous comment on the subject]

I agree with your assessment of the overview of John 17 but it does clearly explain John 10:30 that one means one in purpose as in three separate beings not "one" being. Unless you believe we are all going to meld into one being in the afterlife? You are correct in and and unity and usage of one. I do not understand how you or anyone for that matter can accept that the Father Son and Holy Ghost are not unified but one being? To me the Bible is more consistent than that.

I am aware of 40 verses used to prove the Trinity. Perhaps another topic needs to be opened concerning those 40 verses and usage / interpretation explainations from each perspective.

One thing is sure this debate has been raging for over 2000 years and will not be solved by us, but it is fun to try. ;-)

Wer62

jonathan said...

Ed,

The debate will continue for another 2000 years;

Consider the following Greek use of the word one in the following scripture.

[1 John 5:8 King James Translation]
(8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

Greek: heis (Strong's 1520)

1) one

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 272

Other usage
Matt 5:29 ...that one of thy members...
Matt 6:24 ...he will hate the one, and love the other...
Matt 6:29 ...was not arrayed like one of these...
James 2:19 ...there is one God...

All references to singleness of substance and object not of purpose or other abstract notions but physical material.

Wer62 said...

jonathan,

Maybe I missed something, but the word one is the word one no matter how you slice it even in greek. Yes the word one can be used to show singular form, but I think I have properly established that this is not the case when it is speaking of the Father Son and Holy Ghost except in purpose. Separate beings but one in purpose.

Perhaps you could explain yourself clearer? I don't want to dismiss your argument out of hand, I just don't think you completed the thought..

As for Off Topic Posts, some are harmless posts, (like some of yours) others are degrading or demeaning or attempting to play games with the comment sections of this site. Those comments will be moved to my missing comments board and deleted off of the main topics as to keep things running smoother for conversations like ours. Keeping those that want to HIDE their identities or play like they are someone else and attack those that do not even run this site. I have had enough. They can have their wish and create a blog for my "missing comments". Bottom Line, rude is rude.

Wer62

jonathan said...

Ed,

You are right my last thought was convoluted and incomplete. It seemed to make sense when I first wrote it, but reading it again. It does need some clarifying.

My many points was that language can be an imprecise tool in communicating abstract ideas and concepts. I did not want to imply that I am a great scholar of ancient languages like Hebrew or Greek, but that langauge has limitations.

The idea of Trinity is that there is one God subsisting in three persons and one substance. The word substance implies a unique connectiveness that can not be shared by two distinct elements.

In nature, take the element of oxygen. It has the same substance no matter what phase it is in whether it is liquid, gas, or solid. It has the same essence likewise God is the same essence. This not to be confused with the idea that God changes form back and forth but exists in all three phases simultaneously. Is it possible for a large unit of oxygen to exist in all three phases at the same time in a place in the natural world? I am not a physicist, so I don't know. But could it exists in the supernatural?

[Romans 1:18-23]
(18.)For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (19.) because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (20.) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (21.) because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22.) Professing to be wise, they became fools, (23.) and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

This passage particularly verse 20 helps us to begin to understand the concept that God can be evidenced in His creation. Why not take a single element and use it to describe the very nature of God its Creator. It is foolishness to ascribe the nature of the Godhead to that of being a man, even a glorified man.