Wednesday, September 06, 2006

Ye Are Gods - Dispelling the Myth

Detractors of the LDS faith often cite Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34-35 and attempt to rationalize these teachings. Typical of this is the "ye are gods" passage found in Psalms 82:6 and cited by Jesus Christ in John 10:34-35. The usual rationalized explanation is that Psalms 82 refers to Israelite judge who by virtue of their position represent God and are therefore referred to as gods in a figurative sense. Christ's reference to this scripture. by their line of reasoning, should be understood to man that if God called wicked judges "gods", how much more appropriate for Jesus to be called God or Son of God. An alternate interpretation explains the use of the term "gods" as an ironic (some even say sarcastic) figure of speech. They point to the statement , "but ye shall die like men" in support of this view.

Although the above explanation seems superficially plausible, they seem to ignore the context of the full Psalm. Psalms 82:1 states:, for example: "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods". (note the similarity to Abr 3:22-23) where God stood among the pre-existent spirits). The interpretation that this passage is speaking of earthly men in contradicted by several facts. First in Comparison to God, it is difficult to see how wicked judges could be considered "mighty". It is also hard to understand at what point God has stood among them to judge. Verse 6 also contradicts the belief that wicked judges are the subject of the discussion. It states: "all of your are children of the most high". Protestant scholars agree this would not be in keeping with the Old Testament use of the term "children of God", which they understood they refer to the righeous [Deut 14:1-2]. Last, irony seems to be totally absent in both of these verse and in Christ's latter use of this passage. Why would Christ use an ironic remark to establish that he was the Son of God when he was being accused of blasphemy? This would only have given those ready to kill him [John 10:39] additional reason to condemn him.

As further proof that the doctrine of deification was originally an accepted biblical teaching, consider the following statements by orthodox Christian saints as quoted by Stephen E. Robinson:

In the second century Saint Irenaeus, the most important Christian theologian of
his time, said

If the word became a man it was so men may become gods
[Against Heresies, book 5, preface]

Indeed, Saint Irenaeus had more than this to say on the subject of deification: Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of your are sons of the Most High". . . For it was necessary at the first that nature be exhibited, then all that was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality . . . "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For as God is always the same, so also man when found in God, shall always progress towards God".

Also in the second century , Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I way the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." [Exhortation to the Greeks, (1)] . . . Clement also said that "if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God . . . His is beauty and true beauty , for it is God, and that man becomes like god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus as right when he said "Men are gods, and gods are men [The Instructor, 3:1; see also Clement, Stromateis, p23]

I could go on with Second Century Justin Martyr or Fourth Century Saint Athanasius and a number of other Early Fathers and modern orthodox scholars but I think you get the point. Although the summary of comments by the first Fathers and other respected Christians is admittedly incomplete, it nevertheless shows that the doctrine of deification was accepted and taught since the very beginning of the Church. The fact that theologians and saints from Justin Martyr to C.S. Lewis (not quoted in this article) in the Twentieth Century considered it an "orthodox" doctrine, makes it somewhat ironic that those who now call themselves "orthodox" Christians have labeled this doctrine as heretical.

For Further Quotes see Darrick Evenson, The Gainsayers, pp 49-57

6 comments:

jonathan said...

The word gods (elohim) used in Psalm 86 clearly references mighty ones and speaks of unrighteous judges in the first verse and later references the children of God as mighty ones. God's children made mighty by their faith in the LORD. But even given that let us, explore the psalm...

Psalm 86 is a psalm of Asaph. But who is Asaph? When did he live?

Asaph was musician in the court of King David. He used the language and words that were in common usage at his time in those verses. The word gods (elohim) appears in several psalms. Open your King James Bible to 1 Chronicles 16:7-36. Here we find a psalm written by David and given to Asaph that uses this word gods. Focus attention to verse 25 and 26 to see how the word gods (elohim) was commonly used in that culture. The psalm is one of thanksgiving for the provision that the LORD had made for his people and their need to give him the worship and fear He rightly deserves not the gods of other peoples (tribes) that lived around the tribe of Israel. These gods are idols and should not be given honor or worship, but only give glory and strength to the LORD.

Also look to Exodus chapter 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Please note the capital on Me and the lower case on gods. Even God admits that there are other gods, but what are these gods. They are nouns-persons, places, or things-that are worshipped. They are indeed false gods and have no real power or strength. The only
power they have is to mislead and distract men from the True and Living God.

The believers and followers of Jesus are indeed "mighty ones" as the early church fathers so state. We are mighty given that the strength and power are from the LORD, the one and only True God.

jonathan said...

The point of all this discussion about the word gods either referencing mighty ones or false idols, is that there is no doctrine found in the bible or expressed by early church fathers of men ascending to becoming equals to God.

Wer62 said...

jonathan said...
The word gods (elohim) used in Psalm 86 clearly references mighty ones and speaks of unrighteous judges in the first verse and later references the children of God as mighty ones.

Wer62 Replies:
First I would like some clarification. We are speaking of Psalm 82 not 86 as my original article stated: I am hoping you just misquoted the number of the psalm by a simple mistake. I have done this especially in times where I have multiple questions I am answering at one time.

I clearly dispelled this myth. Let me requote what I wrote so that you can more fully explain your position and give you an opportunity to dispel the LDS position. I gave supporting evidence and will state the summation only: "they seem to ignore the context of the full Psalm. Psalms 82:1 states:, for example: "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods". (note the similarity to Abr 3:22-23) where God stood among the pre-existent spirits). The interpretation that this passage is speaking of earthly men in contradicted by several facts. First in Comparison to God, it is difficult to see how wicked judges could be considered "mighty". It is also hard to understand at what point God has stood among them to judge. Verse 6 also contradicts the belief that wicked judges are the subject of the discussion. It states: "all of your are children of the most high". Protestant scholars agree this would not be in keeping with the Old Testament use of the term "children of God", which they understood they refer to the righeous [Deut 14:1-2]. Last, irony seems to be totally absent in both of these verse and in Christ's latter use of this passage. Why would Christ use an ironic remark to establish that he was the Son of God when he was being accused of blasphemy? This would only have given those ready to kill him [John 10:39] additional reason to condemn him."

I believe I had addressed your position in my original article.

jonathan said...
These gods are idols and should not be given honor or worship, but only give glory and strength to the LORD.

Wer62 Replies:
The verses I you want me to look at specifically are 1 Chronicles 16:25-27 which states:
25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
27 Glory and honour are in his presence; strength and gladness are in his place.

As an LDS person I do not disagree with you. There are situation in which people "worship people or things" before the LORD. The LDS are just not those people. I will quote from another article: Are Mormons Polytheists - Reference is Paragraphs 4 and 5 "Yet Christ has directed us to acknowledge God the Father's overall authority over man, since he is the literal Father of our spirits [Heb 12:9; Matt 5:48; Acts 17:29] Though we recognize Jesus' role as assigned administrator of the earths's affaris, our savior himself instructed us to address our prayers to the Father [Matt 6:9] and to always pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. [3 Nephi 18:19-24] . Thus, our worship of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is primarily channeled to the Father.

Bible Scripture speaks of a "God of gods and Lord of lords" [Deut 10:17 , (see also) Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Ps 97:9; 135:5; 136:2 138:1; Dan 11:36] and Paul taught that while there were many gods, mortals of this earth should worship only God the Father [1 Cor 8:5-6; Col 3:17] The LDS do in fact worship God the Father in the name of Christ as is taught in both ancient and modern scripture [Matt 6:9; John 15:16; 2 Nephi 32:9; Jacob 4:5; 3 Nephi 18:19; Moroni 10:4; D&C 18:40; 20:19, 29, Moses 1:17]"

You can see we do agree with you assessment as far as putting our Lord Father Son and Holy Ghost (Godhead) above all else.

jonathan said...
Also look to Exodus chapter 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Please note the capital on Me and the lower case on gods.

Wer62 Replies:
On this part we agree - but I think you are taking the meaning differently based on your comment below. The LDS believe there are no other Gods before Him. Defined not as a liner time but in heirachy. We Worship God first and foremost over anything else, example, we do not worship the cross, nor any idol, nor men. There are those that will say that we "worship" our prophets, but this simply is not the case.

jonathan said...
Even God admits that there are other gods, but what are these gods. They are nouns-persons, places, or things-that are worshipped. They are indeed false gods and have no real power or strength.

Wer62 Replies:
Then by your intepretation you and I can only mislead? The verse states "ye are gods". We are... Since the priests could not have been wicked priests as explained in my original article where does this leave this intepration? Pretty much without merit. This totally discounts the preisthood as well. The preisthood directed and run by Jesus Christ who is the one who said "Have I not said ye are gods"

jonathan said...
The only power they have is to mislead and distract men from the True and Living God.

Wer62 Replies:
While I agree that false idols and false gods lead us away from our true goal to recieve the gift and return to our Father in Heaven, I do believe discernment needs to be exercised in this case.

Remember:
1. Man was created in both the image and likeness of God [Gen 1:26-27].
2. We are to strive to be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect
3. We are the offspring of God

The true concept of God is not that of an "unknown" or unknowable God {Acts 17:23} but one whose offspring we are {Acts 17:28-29} and in whose image we were created {Gen 1:26-27}. Our Heavenly Father loves us and wants us to know him and become like him {Matt 5:48; John 3:1-2} [Trinity Doctrine Exposed - Reference is Paragraph 7]

jonathan said...

First, I did mistype the quotation it was Psalm 82 not Psalm 86.

Summary.
Regardless of whether gods is refering to mighty ones as in this passage OR mighty idols [Exodus 20:3, 1 Chr 16:25-27]. The bible does not directly state that any man can ascend to become equals to God, although some quote certain passages and make inferences to support this claim; That men can ascend to Godhood was one of the original lies from the devil found in Genesis, and as His creation we are always subordinate to Him. Not all men are the offspring of God, only those spiritually born review the conversation between Jesus and Nicodomus [John 3]. We are all His creation but not all His offspring. Why then are we in need of adoption in Romans 8:15 if we are all ready His children?

Additional Thoughts.
I do not worship either the cross or the bible, just the Author and Finisher of my Faith, the Lord Jesus. [Hebrews 12:2] However, just as you revere modern prophets for their messages from God, I too revere both the cross and the bible for the messages they speak to me of God.

Psalm 82:1: Wicked Judges. Wickedness and power are often mixed together. From your own scripture in the Book of Mormon would say that King Noah was wicked and powerful? It is not too far of a stretch to then apply that to judges or rulers in Israel. These judges in Israel did exercize that power unrighteously, yet they still had the power to be considered mighty. Although powerful on this world, Ultimate righteous judgement is excercized by God. God is always standing as ruler of the universe even among these unrighteous mighty men. His sovereignty over all creation and His endless supply of mercy are evident here along with our inability at times to understand God's purposes. [Isaiah 55:8] God's judgement comes in many forms. Sometimes in this life but always comes eventually. I am not able to think of were in the bible it is recorded that these specific wicked judges were judged by God, but before too long all the nation of Israel was judged for unfaithfulness and wickedness.

In reconcilling the difference between the reference at the begining of this psalm and then later; consider that all are mighty ones. All are made mighty through the resurrection of our Lord and our promised resurrection. All men regardless of their faithfulness to God, wicked judges of the law, the suppressed people, or the children of God, will be resurrected and judged in the end. Once resurrected all will be in a physical body of much higher condition--mightier than we have now. Regardless of the final "resting" place whether it is with God in heaven the body will be able to withstand His radiant glory or the endless judgement and torment of hellfire.

My personal opinion is that the first reference in this chapter is to mighty ones as contexted in the surrounding phrases as pointing to mighty ones in position to serve as judges over others, and the second reference to mighty ones those made mighty by the Lord and that have been adopted as the children of God [Romans 8:15]

In John chapter 10, Jesus spoke in truth regardless of the consequences of those words. God can not lie [Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18]. Remember Jesus came into the world to offer Himself as the perfect Sacrifice for all in death. If that death came through the Law and punishment of being a accused as a Blasphemier in the eyes of His accusers or by other means, His death was necessary for us.

Anonymous said...

I don't get it..why do so many Christian religions have a problem that we as God's children can inherit all that He has? How can one think of our progression as a spirit son or daughter of God simply stopping when we reach some peoples view of what heaven might be? I can't imagine that.

jonathan said...

Dea asks "why do so many Christian religions have a problem that we as God's children can inherit all that He has?"

I have no problem with our ability as adopted sons and daughters of God to inherit all that He has made for us to recieve; Given that adoption only comes through our profession of Faith in Jesus later demonstrated by our Obedience to Him. However, For anyone to expect to obtain a complete Glory equal to God is the same as the demands of Lucifer.

Dea asks "How can one think of our progression as a spirit son or daughter of God simply stopping when we reach some peoples view of what heaven might be?"

The inheritance God gives his children is not a progression or earned reward based on any act we preform. It is a gift.