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Mormonism - Fact Over Fiction is a blog intended to post the facts of LDS doctrine in order to answer questions of those who oppose the LDS church and its members. These groups usually baring false witness of doctrines that the LDS either do not believe or twist doctrines into unrecognizable forms. All comments are welcome here Pro, Anti and Neutral. Open discussions are held at MSN Group Mormon Chat
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- Wer62
- I am interested in the two subjects that most people will not talk about. Religion and Politics.
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Thank you for your patients,
Wer62
Please check out www.edremillard.org for my political website. Donations welcomed.
Thank you for your patients,
Wer62
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8 comments:
Quotation from the Introduction page of the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
If the Book of Mormon is admittedly a partial record, parts were abridged and others sealed, [see brief explanation about the Book of Mormon] Did the other parts of the Book of Mormon chiselled by ancient people that God either later sealed or had editted not contain anything of the everlasting gospel? In short, where in this everlasting gospel found in the Book of Mormon, is there mention of temple ceremonies? Is temple worship not part of the everlasting gospel? If so, why then do Mormons considered these ceremonies so important?
I hope this post is not too far off topic. It does emphasis that the Book of Mormon is very key to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints and does contain the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
Fullness of the Gospel:
This argument rests on the erroneous premise that "fulness" means every point of doctrine relating to every conceivable gospel topic. Obviously no one book of scripture, or even all the Standard Works together, contain "every conceivable doctrine." In fact, the scriptures are clear that God will yet reveal many great truths (Amos 3:7, John 16:12).
The Book of Mormon gives us a clear understanding of what is needed to truly follow the example of Christ and be "saved" in the Kingdom of God (3 Nephi 11:33). It is required that we have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized with water and the Holy Ghost and endure in righteousness to the end (see all of 2 Nephi 31 and 32). One might add that the fulness of the gospel, in addition to the above, embraces the atonement of Christ and the universal judgment. (3 Nephi 27:13-2l).
As to the higher ordinances necessary for exaltation (after one enjoys the companionship of the Holy Ghost), it is probably of those ordinances the Lord was speaking when he said, "If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things--that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal" (D & C 42:61)
As Latter-day Saints we have the promise that a time is coming when this fulness will be preached to all:
For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ (D & C 90:11).
The fulness of the gospel that will be taught to all is the "doctrine of Christ." See also 3 Nephi 11:28-40; D & C 10:67.
[Quotation form previous post}]
This argument rests on the erroneous premise that "fulness" means every point of doctrine relating to every conceivable gospel topic. Obviously no one book of scripture, or even all the Standard Works together, contain "every conceivable doctrine." In fact, the scriptures are clear that God will yet reveal many great truths"
It is never enough is it. There is no end to all the doctrines in the Mormon faith and the revelation of God's truth. The amount of works that need to be complete for salvation is ongoing. Why can't it be something as simple as belief in Jesus, and in His transforming power of Grace.
Once a Believer of the Church of Jesus Christ has mastered the fulness of the Gospel from the Standard works he/she still can not rest in their salvation, they must continue to work to earn their salvation. There is no security; There is always doubt about doing enough. The work has been finished when Jesus said from the Cross, "It is done." [John 19:30]
So the point is that the Book of Mormon is important, the keystone of your religion and a man may come closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book, It is the most correct of any book or so stated by you modern day prophets, yet it is not enough. More is needed? When does it end?
The bible contains all that is necessary to recieve eternal life. [Hebrews 1:1-2] (1)God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, (2) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son...
God has revealed all to us through His Son, nothing more and nothing else is needed be said that can lead someone to salvation that can not be found in the Bible.
[John 3:16] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. only if he continues to listen to modern day prophets and do whatever they require of you as they are God's annointed
Italics to emphasize the revealed truth that adds to the God's word the non-itallics.
Jonathan States:
Once a Believer of the Church of Jesus Christ has mastered the fulness of the Gospel from the Standard works he/she still can not rest in their salvation, they must continue to work to earn their salvation. There is no security; There is always doubt about doing enough. The work has been finished when Jesus said from the Cross, "It is done." [John 19:30]
Wer62 Replies:
We must continue to obey the Lord or repent. This much is true. Wait, are you saying once saved always saved and that no one can lose thier salvation? Just asking...
As for additional revelation, Your own Bible says that will happen. You have a problem with your own Bible now? Just asking.
Sorry for the "short reply" just taking a break from packing for my trip.
Wer62
No apology needed. Life is more than just sitting around reading and writing blogs. There are other things to do with our time. Travel is a good one.
I am not sure if this answers your concerns.
Security.
My perspective of the Mormon Faith is that although written scripture is valuable and contains the fulness of the essentials of the gospel. Modern prophets and continual revelation about God's will is necessary for salvation. The source of a Mormon's security is in their Modern Living Prophet and what he says. It is in each members ability to be obedient to God. Security is based on human ability and on the system of the restored gospel, not on the dynamic Love (grace) that God shows to individuals. Hope is place in prophets and the church not on Jesus.
Christian security is found only in Jesus. There is no restored system of ordinances that must be preformed for salvation. Security comes from a daily walk with the Lord and reliance on His strength and His ability in us to be obedient. It is not our abilities or the abilities of others including modern prophets, but His abililty.
Can someone lose their salvation? That depends on when the moment of Salvation occurs. Does it occur when I first submit to the Lord's will in my life and make Him Lord of my life? Is it when one is raised in the resurrection and enters His presence and Glory? I view salvation as a precious gift. Why would anyone want to lose so precious a gift? The theoritical possibility is that gifts can be deliberately lost. For me, however, as often as I need I ask the Lord to renew my mind and body to strengthen me with his love (grace) in order that I may remain faithful to Him and His gift and He is faithful to answer my pray with strength. He has not failed me. At times, I fail him in my obedience, but His grace allows for me to be forgiven.
jonathan said...
It is never enough is it. There is no end to all the doctrines in the Mormon faith and the revelation of God's truth. The amount of works that need to be complete for salvation is ongoing. Why can't it be something as simple as belief in Jesus, and in His transforming power of Grace.
Wer62 Replies:
Let me address this in stages:
1. You stated: "It is never enough is it. There is no end to all the doctrines in the Mormon faith and the revelation of God's truth."
It is not up to you or I if it is "enough" or not. We will be judged by God the Father as Jesus Christ as our advocate. The scriptures clearly outline what is required for salvation. What can be debated is our definition of salvation and what it means to each of us. I believe you can and probably will be "saved". You probably do not agree that of me. That is a whole different subject.
2. So lets turn to the next part in which you stated: "There is no end to all the doctrines in the Mormon faith and the revelation of God's truth."
More accurately stated there is no end to what we may recieve from God. You basically are stating there is "no continuing revelation" and the Bible is all we need and therefore a complete cannon with nothing else for Heavenly Father to say. If this is what you are saying then I have to disagree.
The Bible itself indicates that additional scripture [Isa 29; Ezek 37] and future revelations [Matt 17:11; Luke 10:22; John 16:12-15; Acts 2:17-18 and James 1:5] Even the book of Revelation itself alludes to future prophets and revelation from Heaven. [Rev 11:3; 14:6] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. [2 Tim 3:16] All this of course unless you do not believe your Bible? I am guessing that you do believe your Bible. Though the Bible indicates that revelation is part and parcel of the true Church [Amos 3:7; 1 Cor 14:29-33, 37-39, many denominations today teach that revelation has ceased. Some go a step further and condemn those who believe in modern revelation. Hugh Nibley one of my favorite apologists has observed that anti-Mormon literature generally shows a "singular lack of variety and imagination in accusations, all of which can be readily reduced to one standard indictment, monotonously repeated and mechanically transmitted from one writer to the next: the crime of believing in continuous revelation. Claims to the prossession of prephetic powers, to exclusive knowledge of the true gospel and the priesthood that goes with it and to all the other carismatic gifts, are simply corollaries of the basic proposition that God still speaks to men." [Hugh Nibley, The World and the Prophets, p. 284]
So this begs me to ask, do you believe we have all that God has intended in scripture? The Bible I say is imcomplete as evidenced by the missing books it references within its pages. Is it enough for salvation, I say Yes it is, but to what degree? Yet another topic that will need to be covered another time in another article. I will add it to my list.
jonathan said...
Once a Believer of the Church of Jesus Christ has mastered the fulness of the Gospel from the Standard works he/she still can not rest in their salvation, they must continue to work to earn their salvation. There is no security; There is always doubt about doing enough. The work has been finished when Jesus said from the Cross, "It is done." [John 19:30]
Wer62 Replies:
First, we do not believe works saves us, however we do believe in being obedient. The Lord has commanded us to work and has set that very example for us. This is a common misconception that we believe works saves us. This claim has been made for years and simply isn't true. For more on Faith and Works, see my article already published Who Says the LDS Teach Saved by Works?
The work of the atonement was done when Christ said it was done, but not our work. There are components of salvation and heavenly Father wants to see all of his Children saved. He provided a way through his son Jesus Christ to Atone for our sins that by his grace we might be saved. In return we are asked to have Faith and do the works that are asked of us to follow the laws and ordinances including repentance. Grace is extended to us after we show faith and faith will result in good works. We are commanded to "go forth and teach all nations and baptize them in the name of Christ" this in itself is a work. This cannot be denied! Work is an outward show of ones faith and faith is how we obtain grace.
jonathan said...
yet it is not enough. More is needed? When does it end?
Wer62 Replies:
We learn line upon line precept upon precept. When does it end? When the Lord says it ends. When we have a "full understanding" and perfected would be my best guess but that is all it is on my part a best guess. As for salvation, The Bible and The Book of Mormon contain the neccessary components for salvation. The question begs to be asked, doesn't Heavenly Father want us to know more than just salvation? How about knowing him personally? Those that are just looking for a checklist of things to be accomplished for salvation may be disappointed to find that they are not saved. Even Satan and his minions believes in Christ he just chooses not to follow him or his works but their self designed "my way" approach. Anyone believing they can do it on their own or work their way to heaven "will be" disappointed just as those who believe they can do nothing but believe will be equally disappointed.
jonathan said...
Can someone lose their salvation? That depends on when the moment of Salvation occurs. Does it occur when I first submit to the Lord's will in my life and make Him Lord of my life? Is it when one is raised in the resurrection and enters His presence and Glory?
Wer62 Replies:
The LDS believe salvation occurs after death and at the judgment. Can we be assured of salvation? Sure, we do what we can do in repentence since no one is perfect. We can certainly lose it. There are a number of scriptures that speak of enduring until the end. Even Jesus Christ had to endure to the end pleading in prayer and said "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." [Matt 26:39 - paraphrased]a better example is "Not every one that saith unto me, bLord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." [Matt 7:21] It is clear we are to do the will of the Father. That "will" is laid out in the scriptures for us to follow. If you have faith you will do as you are asked and that includes work. If you do not do as asked {and/or} do not repent with godly sorrow you will not be saved. Sounds from your testimony Jonathan, you have nothing to worry about.
Now, I have to ask, Do you believe that every point of doctrine relating to every conceivable gospel topic has been given to mankind? The Bible being complete and inerrant? Do you look at the Bible as "Salvation only" or do you want to know more about God? Is Doctrine and Gospel the "same" meaning to you? Last Question for this posting, Do you understand what our defintion of "fulness of the gospel" means?
Sorry this was such a long posting...
Wer62
More Thoughts
1. You are correct it is not up to us. God is our Judge. There are two ways to obtain salvation. First complete adherance to the Law of God as given to Moses. I believe there are approximately 600 commands that demand our complete obedience and sacrificial remedies for each offense commit preformed by heredical priesthood. Obviously, no one is able by human strength and ability to live a life of complete obedience in meeting these demands. Enter the second way ordained from the foundations of the world, our belief in Jesus Christ as Messiah and in His ability to be the High Priest and the perfect sacrifice for our disobedience to God. A professed Faith in Christ is enough. Faith without its fruit (works) is dead though.
2. Again I agree with you that there is continuing revelation from God. The Holy Spirit speaks to us, mostly in witnessing the truth discovered within the bible and its value to our specific needs. However, all the "fullness of the
gospel" is within the Bible. Fullness of the gospel as defined by the great news that Jesus is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world and is the Son of God and Did redeem mankind as stated within the Bible and nothing more is needed for salvation.
There are numerous references that God will continue to reveal more to men as found in the Old Testament, we find these words in the New Testament. Promises of future prophets and messages found within the New Testament are also being fulfilled. The defining of prophets and their messages is were we will begin to differ, Another topic.
What I mean that there is no end to the doctrines found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that there is an every changing list of human efforts required to obtain the Highest Celestial Glory.
Example: In the 1970s the Priesthood practiced in the church was extended to all overruling previous doctrine preventing some from obtaining full glory. This seems logical though to have more precepts and lines added to what has all ready been stated. It allowed for all men to gain the priesthood
another requirement for men in the church to obtain the Highest Celestial Glory.
But consider the other official declaration of the church that removes an eternal law from practice rather than adding precept upon precept. It is taking away from the revelation of God.
Example two: In Acts 10:9-15 God removes dietary restrictions for believers, and years later in D&C 89 God apparently again adds dietary restrictions that must be followed in order to obtain the Highest Celestial Glory by maintaining current temple worthiness.
I do believe that all God intends for us to know about him can be obtained through careful reading of God's recorded words found in the scripture of the Holy Bible. [See Heb 4:12].
The word of God (bible) is
1. Alive.
2. Powerful.
3. Sharp Judge.
4. Discerner of intentions.
It is [see Isaiah 55:10-12 New King James Translation] as life giving as the rain. (10)“ For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, (11) So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall
accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (12) “ For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace;
There is little doubt that obedience to God is important but subordinate to faith. Only by God's grace are we able to be obedient and clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
If works do not save us, what need is there for more scripture to outline more works? If faith in Jesus is all we need, why is new scripture necessary? The bible contains all we need to know about salvation and great Godly wisdom on the "works" that flow from that faith along with the consequences of disbelief. Our obedience by grace to follow the commandments of God: to Love the God and to Love your neighbor.
It is my view that Salvation has all ready occured for all that will be saved. Salvation occurred at the cross, not at some future Judgement. Individual salvation occurs at the moment of profession of faith and later evidenced by fruit of the believer.
Jonathan,
I know this is old, but I had to comment to this part of what you said.
Example: In the 1970s the Priesthood practiced in the church was extended to all overruling previous doctrine preventing some from obtaining full glory. This seems logical though to have more precepts and lines added to what has all ready been stated. It allowed for all men to gain the priesthood
another requirement for men in the church to obtain the Highest Celestial Glory.
What I wanted to point out is that no doctrine was changed in 1978, but policy was, and this policy never did make it so that those who could not receive the priesthood at that time could not obtain the Highest Celestial Glory.
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