wer62
Does the New Testament define Christianity? Several leading anti Mormons cite as their mandate against the LDS Church Jude 3-4 which states:
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
But how does this apply to the LDS Church? Do Latter Day Saints deny the Father and the Son? Not according to the Articles of Faith which affirms the belief in both. Are Latter Day Saints prone to lasciviousness? Where is the evidence for such a claim? It seems quite clear according to these verses that the admonition of Jude 3-4 for the followers of Christ to “contend for the faith” against “ungodly men” cannot refer specifically to Mormons or Mormonism.
Another set of verses used to state that Mormons are not Christians is 1 John 4:1-3,6
Another set of verses used to state that Mormons are not Christians is 1 John 4:1-3,6
1 BELOVED, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
What the passages in question do not say is the word Christian. So Christian is not defined nor is it mentioned. Only one doctrinal standard is laid down. The spirit of thuth will not teach gnosticism or docetism, early Christian heresies which denied or downplayed the reality of Jesus’ physical body but will affirm the actual incarnation of Christ. It will not teach that Christ was only spiritually the Son of God, or that he did not have an actual body of flesh and blood. “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God. Do Latter Day Saints deny that Jesus is the Son of God? No, the first Article of Faith and literally hundreds of passages teach his divine Sonship.
In Acts 11:26 we are told that “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch” How did this term come to pass? It falls in the same classification as Herodian o Caesarian already in circulation. Christian being defined under the same type terms would be followers of Christ. In the United States, we have frequently called people “Jacksonian democrats or Marxists". Other examples in Christianity can include Augustinians, Pelatians, Lutherans, Calvinists and Mennonites as well as other examples. So who were these people who were first called Christians? What was the composition of the Church at Antioch. For one thing it included prophets! This flies in the face of the fact that the claim has been made that Jesus fulfilled the High Priesthood and Prophets an office of the High Priesthood were no longer necessary. Also this flies in the face of those who say that no additional revelation is necessary (i.e. The Book of Mormon) since Jesus Christ is the final revelation from God. Yet here, the first congregation of Jesus’ followers to receive the title of “Christian” is characterized, precisely by Christian Prophets. Imagine that.
Paul was not the only influence at Antioch. In fact he was not even the dominant one. Why is this fact important? Mormonism is often expelled from Christendom because they do not accept the supposedly Pauline doctrine of salvation by grace alone. But neither did it seem that members of the congregation at Antioch who were the first in the Old World to receive the title of Christian.
So what makes a Christian today? Simple, a commitment to follow Jesus Christ! This is not disqualified in the LDS Church and in fact the LDS Church follows closer to the Early Church in its followings of Christ and his Church then most protestant Churches today.
In Acts 11:26 we are told that “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch” How did this term come to pass? It falls in the same classification as Herodian o Caesarian already in circulation. Christian being defined under the same type terms would be followers of Christ. In the United States, we have frequently called people “Jacksonian democrats or Marxists". Other examples in Christianity can include Augustinians, Pelatians, Lutherans, Calvinists and Mennonites as well as other examples. So who were these people who were first called Christians? What was the composition of the Church at Antioch. For one thing it included prophets! This flies in the face of the fact that the claim has been made that Jesus fulfilled the High Priesthood and Prophets an office of the High Priesthood were no longer necessary. Also this flies in the face of those who say that no additional revelation is necessary (i.e. The Book of Mormon) since Jesus Christ is the final revelation from God. Yet here, the first congregation of Jesus’ followers to receive the title of “Christian” is characterized, precisely by Christian Prophets. Imagine that.
Paul was not the only influence at Antioch. In fact he was not even the dominant one. Why is this fact important? Mormonism is often expelled from Christendom because they do not accept the supposedly Pauline doctrine of salvation by grace alone. But neither did it seem that members of the congregation at Antioch who were the first in the Old World to receive the title of Christian.
So what makes a Christian today? Simple, a commitment to follow Jesus Christ! This is not disqualified in the LDS Church and in fact the LDS Church follows closer to the Early Church in its followings of Christ and his Church then most protestant Churches today.
94 comments:
Question for Ed: Don't Mormons believe that they will become gods someday?
Ed, Better yet, Instead of Christians saying, LDS are not Christians, Let us say instead, we do not serve the same God.
Here are some examples. I will refer to us Christians as Non-LDS christians for the purpose of this post. Us non-LDS christians Believe in the Trinity, LDS do not, Just Curious asked, do LDS believe they will be Gods someday? The answer is Yes, youy believe you can or will, Us Non-LDS christians do not.
When I talked about adam God, Something I said was this. Ed another Reason I Believe BY ment what he said was this. Take the Mormon, Ogden Kraut, I know LDS do not like him or trust him, but he wrote a book called MICHAEL/ADAM it is 170 pages, he quotes from LDS Sources and gives tons of evidence that BY said Adam is God.
But I suspect, you will have reason to discredit him, theirfore all the Evidence he uses will be garbage in your eyes.
Lets add to this, you claim the JoD is not Scripture, theirfore you dont trust BY, But the D and C is SCRIPTURE, Yet LDS deny the D and C 132 teaching of pologamy being an everlasting Covenet for today, sent down by God, Boy no matter how much God Speaks you claim it is false if you dont like it. Well please review Gal 1-verses 6-8.
These Verse talk more about PERVETING THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, This is exactly what the LDS church does. I know you will disagree, but when you get tossed into the Lake of fire as talked about in the Book of Revelation in the great white throne judgment, you have no one but yourself to blame. No matter how much evidence is given, it is always twisted, unless you agree with it.
The reason I reposted that was, I am using that as another Evidence your not serving the same God as Me. You deny the D and C 132 teaching, yet you believe the D and C is Scripture, but you deny Adam God, even though an LDS membver believes it and sites much evidence for it.
You know as well as I do their are massive amounts of doctrine we dis-agree with. The only problem with this question is, we really cannot cover it in a few posts. If we really broke down the differences we could cover many different topics in more and greater detail. Rick b
Rick,
I am not denying anything. You say I am denying the D & C concerning polygamy but again it is your decernment of our scriptures that is in question.
We believe polygamy to be an everlasting convenant and you believe that it has to be practiced here on Earth and all times and that is not the case at all.
You quote scripture but you do it with no understanding behind it. Take Jacob 2:27 as the standard:
"Wherefore, my brehtren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; concubines he shall have none."
Jacob 2:27 is the standard for marriage and what Jacob is doing here is preaching against is those people who love polygamy more than the Lord. Verse 30 states that it is OK when called of by the Lord. It states:
"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall haearken unto these things."
So you see it is a matter of decernment and it is an everlasting convenant. We also have an Article of Faith that states we are to follow the laws of the land. We are not on conflict since we are following the laws of the land and today we have no need of polygamy to keep the religion from extermination as was being done in Nauvoo. Men were being killed off and women being left to "defend" themselves.
This also has no bearing on the Adam God Theory that you still have not shown to be doctrine. We fully understand polygamy and its roll and it is a Biblical principal that your and your religious denomination ignore except to bash on somone elses faith. Clear standards are set.
As for Ogden Kraut, he was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1972 for not following the bounderies of Polygamy. It is unfortunate that he could not control himself sexually and was unauthrorized in the practice of polygamy. Therefore since he was excommunicated for lack of understanding you have to excuse the fact that just because he stated the Adam God "Theory" is doctrine does not make it so.
Conclusion: Polygamy is an everlasting covenant and the Adam God "Theory" is not doctrine.
Just_Curious,
I do not understand your question as it relates to the topic, could you elaborate?
Wer62
Rick, now that we have my doctrinal position out of the way, doctrine by itself does not define Christianity. I would call you a Christian based on the fact you attempt to follow the Lord the best you can with what you have. The LDS certainly do not deny Christ and therefore are Christians as well.
Wer62
Sorry. I realize now that the context was not clear. I think that the reason some people question whether or not a Mormon is a Christian because some of the beliefs don't make sense. It seems to me that if Mormons believe that they will become gods someday, there may be a conflict with Christianity.
OK, now that we have your view on what Christianity is outside of the LDS, please elaborate on Christianity AS an LDS member.
Ed, If you want to post the entire D and C and break it down feel free, I am posting the first 8 verses for all to read, then I will break them down and touch on them. Then I will add more thoughts.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
Ed, in these first two verses, God states he reveled this stuff to Joseph. He claims these Servents of old practiced it and God states he justifed the practice. Why is it, you or the LDS claim, this practice is for the next life, but God appers to state it is for this life?
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
Ed, notice, God states if you reject this Covent you will be damned. God appers to be saying, you cannot enter his glory if you reject this teaching. This is for this life, not the next. God tells JS he is giving instructions for this life, not the next, Also you state, this was for certain men, God claims ALL WHO HEAR, MUST OBEY. Why is it God teaches it is an everlasting covenet to be practiced now, yet you claim we must obey Mans laws, theirfore we cannot practice it?
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
Ed, Again, God seems to be saying, this is a LAW WE MUST OBEY. Why do you follow mans laws and not Gods? God even teaches, this was a law from before the foundation of the earth. That denys what I will post from the Bible and BoM later.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
Ed, Verse 7 CLEARLY STATES, THIS PRACTICE IS A LAW FOR US NOW, BEFORE DEATH. Not after we die.
Ed, I own the 1883 edition D and C which includes lectures on faith, originally considered to be part of D and C and called scripture. pages 37,38,42,43,51 and 1 nephi 10:18 and hebrews 18:8 all say God cannot change, he is the same yesterday, today, forever. This also Denies what is taught above.
Alma 14:1 17:2 33:2 Acts 17:11 and many others say search the scriptures. Psalms 138:2 God puts his WORD above his NAME. I feel mormons do not search the scriptures because if they did the would see God NEVER said practice polygamy. Did men do it? Yes. Why? We are sinners. Read Jeremiah 17:9. If God punished us for every sin--even lying--by death or otherwise, then where would be his grace.
Did God punish people in the old testment for polygamy? Yes. David never had peace after this. His own kids rebelled and a sword was upon his house. Mormons say it was needed because of persecution and they might die out. Read your scriptures as the above verses state. 1 kings 19:10-18 God set aside 7,000 that did not bow the knee to baal. He rebuked Isaiah for thinking he was the last.
Read 3 nephi 28:7 God granted 3 followers the gift of living forever until his return. This throws total apostasy into doubt, but that aside, if there are 3 living forever mormons will not and can not die out. David had to commit murder to get Bathsheba, was that of God? Abraham slept with Hagar, did God allow that? What about the son getting told by God to leave. These verses deny what was taught in the D and C above, by God.
Plural Marriage in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants we read:
"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again"(Doctrine and Covenants, section 101:4 1835 ed.)
This is in conformity with Book of Mormon teaching on the subject:
"Behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord...Wherefore my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife" (Jacob 2:24,27)
On 12 July, 1843 Joseph Smith was given a revelation which was to become Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. Perhaps the most controversial of all his teachings. A revelation of such importance, however, that those who disobeyed it would be damned:
"For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no-one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory..."
Obedience, on the other hand, would bring nothing less than godhood:
"And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant,...they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation...
Then shall they be gods,..."
The nature of the covenant is that; "-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified."
Although this revelation was given in 1843 it was not added to the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876. It was at that time that the original revelation, Doctrine and Covenants 101:4, was removed. This means that between 1843 and 1876 church leaders entered into polygamy in spite of the fact that until 1876 their own published scriptures forbade it.
When it is realised that, by the church's own admission, Joseph Smith was probably married to at least 27 women prior to the 1843 revelation one begins to realise the possible reason for the change in official doctrine. And, as though to confirm our worst suspicions, we read in the same revelation:
"And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God...
And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph,...But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord;..." (D&C 132:4,19,20,61,62,52,54)
The old has gone, the new has come. The order has been changed by means of a, "new and everlasting covenant". But what about the Book of Mormon?
"Behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord...Wherefore my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife."
To this day these verses stand unaltered in the record of the Nephites. In the Doctrine and Covenants however there is an altogether different account of events:
"David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants,... and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and other prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife;..." (D&C 132:38,39)
When challenged to reconcile these statements Apostle Legrand Richards, author of "A Marvelous Work and A Wonder", said:
"I am afraid I can't adequately reconcile these two statements. If the one in the Doctrine and Covenants had omitted the names of David and Solomon, then I think I could reconcile the two statements" (Letter from Legrand Richards to Morris L Reynolds, July 14, 1966. Source:Mormonism, Shadow or Reality,1982,p.205)
This is a remarkable turn around in light of the essential nature, not only of the doctrine, but also of the practice of polygamy to the salvation of Mormons. Consider that it has been said:
"When that principle [of plural marriage] was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith...an Angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle or he should be utterly destroyed..." ( Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses,vol.20pp.28-31
Heber C. Kimball went on to state that:
“You might as well deny 'Mormonism' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives... I speak of the plurality of wives as one of the most holy principles that God ever revealed to man, and all who exercise an influence against it, unto whom it is taught...will be damned...the curse of God will be upon them” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p.203 Journal of Discourses vol. 11, p.211)
And Brigham Young clearly taught that:
“The only men who become Gods, even Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p.269)
Now the order had changed back again as President Woodruff, in a statement now known as Official Declaration 1, declared:
“There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates...which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land” (Official Declaration-1, D&C, 1982, pp.291-2)
Today the Mormon Church struggles to persuade tens of thousands of Mormon "fundamentalists" in Utah to comply with church doctrine and the law of the land. In the face of such hypocrisy amongst leaders of an earlier generation the struggle seems doomed to failure.
The Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie has said:
“Any who pretend or assume to engage in plural marriage in this day...are guilty of gross wickedness. They are living in adultery, have already sold their souls to Satan and...they will be damned in eternity” (Bruce R. Mcconkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pp.522-23)
Early church leaders clearly taught that those who opposed polygamy would be damned. Todays leaders teach the exact opposite. It seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't!
Early Church leaders taught that polygamy was essential to exaltation. Today’s leaders say: "Plural Marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 523)
Polygamy is a doctrine they can neither embrace nor reject. To do the former would be to go against the teachings of the Prophet who brought them the word of God. To follow the latter course they would have to reject the Prophet who taught them polygamy, the founder of their faith, and cast doubt on everything else he ever did. The result either way would be catastrophic. It remains, therefore, a "principle" of the gospel whilst its practice continues to be frowned upon.
Rick,
Are you learning impaired? I did not say it was for the afterlife, I mearly stated and I quote:
We believe polygamy to be an everlasting convenant and you believe that it has to be practiced here on Earth and all times and that is not the case at all.
Being a everlasting convenant does not mean it has to be practiced at all times.
This has nothing to do with the afterlife. Although we do believe that marriage goes forward into the afterlife but that is a different subject.
Please stay on topic this topic is about Are Mormons Christian and you cannot exclude due to doctrinal differences. Otherwise you would have to exclude all other religious denominations based on the same principal no matter how small the diference.
Suppose for a moment that the Latter-day Saints were to take seriously the demand that they conform in every particular to "Christian" doctrine, and that they then made the attempt to do so. Having complied with such a demand, would the Latter-day Saints find themselves in total agreement with Protestants or with Catholics? Would they believe in apostolic succession or in the priesthood of all believers? Would they recognize an archbishop, a patriarch, a pope, a monarch, or no one at all as the head of Christ's church on earth? Would they be saved by grace alone, or would they find the sacraments of the church necessary for salvation? Would they believe in free will or in predestination? Would they practice water baptism? If so, would it be by immersion, sprinkling, or some other method? Would they believe in a substitutionary, representative, or exemplary atonement? Would they or would they not believe in "original sin"? And on and on.
It is unreasonable for other Christians to demand that Latter-day Saints conform to a single standard of "Christian" doctrine when they do not agree among themselves upon exactly what that standard is and then exclude them in the process.
To do so is to establish a double standard; doctrinal diversity is tolerated in some churches, but not in others. The often-heard claim that all true Christians share a common core of necessary Christian doctrine rests on the dubious proposition that all present differences between Christian denominations are over purely secondary or even trivial matters-matters not central to Christian faith. This view is very difficult to defend in the light of Christian history, and might be easier to accept if Protestants and Catholics- or Protestants and Protestants, for that matter had not once burned each other at the stake as non-Christian heretics over these same "trivial" differences.
To exclude the LDS from being a Christian Religion not only is wrong from a standpoint of the "standard defintion" of the word "Christian" but concerning doctrinal differences one would have to conclude that any religion that does not meet fully with their doctrinal standard is non-Christian.
Wer62
P.S. Rick, just for you I will write an article concerning Polygamy to give you the opportunity to present your case in context. I will be looking forward to your response. I hope you are up for the challenge.
Wer, I am up for the challange, But your not a follower of the Jesus I follow, Use the twisted logic all you want. You deny the Jesus of the Bible and will enter into a Christless eterinty by your choice for doing so, The Bible is very clear, just because you deny what the bible teaches and claim so by your twisting of words is not my problem. I cannot sit here in good Conscience and allow false teaching to lead people to eternal damnation. Rick b
Rick, sounds as if you could not answer to my last posting.
Please Rick, do not make judgments like you are Jesus Christ. If you do you will find yourself being judged on the same standard as you have set out for me. Jesus will not be mocked in this area. I give you this advice as a servent of our Lord Jesus Christ and ask you to repent. I would not want to see you burned in the lake of fire.
Wer62
Rick,
Regardless of what your personal opinions may or may not be you simply do not have the competency to critique the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a way that can be taken very seriously by its actual members.
I realize that is a difficult reality for you to admit to yourself emotionally, and i guess i would not expect you to be able to- but your own inner discord on the matter is more a result of a contorted dialogue with your own distortions than it is with the genuine LDS view or with the LDS people themselves.
Put another way- you burn an enormous amount of energy talking to yourself without ever really engageing the genuine LDS view or the LDS people themselves.
Meanwhile the trail of contention, ill will and destruction that has come to be your signature can be seen and felt everywhere you tread- all justified in the name of truth and God.
One is left to wonder.
Wer? Are you learning impaired?
I did answer your question, You do have a different gospel and a different jesus. You lie if you say you dont.
Show me or do a topic on it, what do LDS believe that we NON-LDS christians do not believe. Example, RG Asked you a question as did Just curious, I see you apper to ignore those questions. Then to Just-curious's question Youy state you dont understand. I dont believe you, I believe you do understand you just dont want to answer.
To answer your questions again, LDS DENY THE TRINITY, GRACE ALONE, ORINGAL SIN. You guys do teach you will be Gods someday.
You accuse me of Judging you, I am only saying what paul said. Read Gal 1:6-9 You teach a different Gospel.
Back your believes fromn the bible alone in light of Gal 1:8-9. Paul said if you teach any other Gospel than the one I teach.
The Bible does not teach you can or will be a God. God said I am the only God, I know of no other Gods, none will be formmed after me. non are before me. How can God say their are no Gods before him, if he was once a man who became a God. This means he lies because His father would be a God. You deny the trinty, their fore by saying their are 3 seperate Gods in the Godhood, God the father yet again lied.
If their are 3 seperate Gods, But God the father says I know of no other, How can He not know Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods?
If you can become a God, How can God the father not know about you. Even the BoM, the accout with zeeroms talking with the prophet of God, The prophet clearly States their is only one God.
We read in the Pearl of great price.
In the book of moses,. God states their are NO OTHER GODS, HE SAYS I KNOW OF NONE. But over in the Book of Abrham, God says, I SAT IN THE COUNCEL OF GODS, AND WE CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.
I thought God just said their are no other Gods that I know of, now he sits in the Councles of the Gods. You dont like me saying you have a false Gospel, How do you view the verses like Jesus speaking of False prophets, Paul talking about false teachers and false prophets.
Who Do LDS say these false prophets are? What exactly do the LDS think this false gospel Paul speakes on is? Any answer?
What About 2 Timothy 4:2-3 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
In mormonism, When it says Rebuke, who do you think needs to be rebuked, in light of this vers?
When it says they will turn from the truth who do LDS feel it is talking about?
How do the LDS define Sound Doctrine?
Dont tell me you dont have a different Gospel. As I said, You lie if you say you do not. It is clear we do not serve the Same Jesus. I will not be A god ovewr my own planet someday, I do not serve A jesus who is equeal to lucifer, AKA brother. The Bible is Clear as is the BoM, Lucifer is an angel, If Jesus is/was an angel Also, then this not only denys scripture, hebrews to be exact, But how do LDS handle this verse here?
1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
You mean were going to Judge Jesus?
If this is not enough to say you serve a different Jesus and have a different gospel, then do as I sugested an RG asked you, Lay out the Mormon Gospel, exactly what you believe and how it is the same Gospel as us. CAN YOU DO THAT? Or will you ignore that challange? Prove you serve the same God. But be honest, I know the LDS termongily and I will call you a liar if your not honest.
Dont try and say, we cannot or will not be Gods for example when we both know that is a LDS doctrine, then after you state we can or will be Gods, knowing Non-LDS christians do not believe that, explain how that is the same Gosple I believe. Can you Do that? I know you will say you can but will you? If you decline the challange, be honest enoung to explain why. Rick b
Rick States the Following:
------------------------------
Wer? Are you learning impaired?
I did answer your question, You do have a different gospel and a different jesus. You lie if you say you dont.
--------------------------------
Wer62 Replies:
Rick you really do have a hard time with reality don't you.
1st. Where in this thread did I ask if you answered my questions or not? I didn't, you misunderstood as is common place with you.
2nd The point of my posting on August 15, 2006 7:47 PM is that if the LDS were to seriously take your claims to be mainstream Christian seriously where would they start considering that Protestant groups do not even agree on a great deal of doctrine. The fact you cannot comprehend normal conversational writing is a huge sign that you probably do not understand scriptural references either.
The second point is if you are going to claim doctrinal differences as the LDS are not Christian then you "must" state that anyone that is not of your religious denomination is therefore NON Christian. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Not to do so will make you a hypocrite.
So rick, answer this question: Are all other religious denominations that do not agree with your doctrinal standard in every detail non Christian?
As for not answering "just_curious" and "Roaming G" it is in my original article so why do I need to answer it again:
So what makes a Christian today? Simple, a commitment to follow Jesus Christ!
We will go a bit further however and give the defintion of Christian.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane
We use the same Bible you do, we also have the BOM, D&C and PGoP. All in given to us by the Lord.
Wer62
The second point is if you are going to claim doctrinal differences as the LDS are not Christian then you "must" state that anyone that is not of your religious denomination is therefore NON Christian.
I told you, I am NON-DENOMANATIAL. I believe the Bible and the Bible alone.
Say what you want, But even Jesus Said, I DO NOT KNOW YOU. Just because you claim to know him does not mean you do. I suspect you cannot answer my questions like what is false Doctrine, who are these false prophets the Bible mentions Etc. You wont or cant Answer RG or JUST CURIOUS. Because to do so shows you have a different Gospel.
If you answer no us LDS cannot will not be Gods, then You lie, If you replys with yes, it shows you have a different Gospel. Boy your stuck arnt you.
You said 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane
I say So what, the Bible teaches Pagans love others pagans, This proves what?
You said 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. So What False prophets and even Lucifer know scripture. The Bible says the Devil can come in the form of an angel of light, This proves what?
You said
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. Again this proves what, Read my reply to number 4.
You said
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Again this proves what, Paul states their is false Gospel and false Gods.
You said So rick, answer this question: Are all other religious denominations that do not agree with your doctrinal standard in every detail non Christian?
Two replys, Read the verses I posted from Timothy, they apply to this, then let me add this, If they deny the bible then yes they are wrong.
Remember, when you stand before God, and he says to you depart from me into everlasting Fire, YOU WILL BE WITH OUT EXCUSE, YOU DENIED THE BIBLE. Remember the devil decived Eve by saying Did God really say
Mormons say about the Bible, Did God really say... Or does God really mean...
So are you going to answer my Questions on the Verses I asked, about who do the LDS feel are the False teachers and Prophets and Gospels the Bible speaks about?
You Going to reply to my question about how you can teach a different Gospel and claim we believe the same God? I will do a topic on both and Point out LDS cannot or will not answer, Please feel free to reply their if not here. Rick b
Rick,
Even Non Denomination is a denomination. Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination NON Christian? that is the point.
You keep telling me how I do not answer you questions but you have not answered a ton of mine.
Now, answer that question...
Wer62
Wer62 said: As for not answering "just_curious" and "Roaming G" it is in my original article so why do I need to answer it again.
My Reply:
Denominations may bicker about different understandings of scripture. I don't know of another denomination that believes that they will be gods someday. That appears to me to be a direct conflict with being Christian.
I was hoping that you could help me to better understand the LDS on this topic. If it is not true that the LDS believe that they will become gods someday, just say that. I was trying to dispell a myth I had heard.
I don't know where you answered my question in the original article. (I recognize that I may have missed it.)
Rick,
This is about if Mormons are Christians not about 20 or so differences in doctrine. There or protestant verse protestant, protesttant verses Catholic doctrines that differ greatly.
My point is and has been from the beginning of this thread is that if you call Mormons Mon Christians based on Doctrinal Differences are you going to call all others that do not believe exactly like you NON CHRISTIIAN. So get off the "god" thing and answer the question. The only one in a pickle here is YOU!.
(For Just Curious). I will answer your question in another topic, not this one as I will not discuss in this thread any doctrinal differences or explain them further. That is not the point of my article.
So out of this I owe an article for Rick concerning Polygamy and I owe one to Just Curious about if LDS believe they can become gods. Is that correct so far?
Now, anyone want to answer my point about doctrinal differences being the cause of NON CHRISTIAN!
Rick are you going to commit to calling all that do not believe as you in a "NON DEMOMINATION" belief NON CHRISTAIN? Are you really saying that those protestant groups that do not believe in the TRINITY are NON CHRISTIAN, How about Baptism. Do you believe those that sprinke are NON CHRISTIAN or those that submerge.. Which one do tell. If you are going to say that the LDS are non Christian due to doctrial differences please be honest with reading public and tell the rest of them they are NON CHRISTIAN too.
Sounds to me as you want a double standard.. This is how you have always been..
BTW.. I will write the article for Just Curoius first. He has been a whole lot nicer.
No Rick, I understand all our doctrine it is not because I do not have an answer.
Wer62
i dont think Rick really wants a real discussion. i think he just wants to spew out a bunch of stuff and cause confusion and contention. the dude is out of control.
Ed, You said
This is about if Mormons are Christians not about 20 or so differences in doctrine. There or protestant verse protestant, protesttant verses Catholic doctrines that differ greatly.
In reality, when I or anyone else Posts replys on Polagamy are you going to be a God ETC, this is about your topic at hand. This shows you are not a Christian, so yes it does fit the Topic.
I love how you say as you said to me before when we were writing Private emails, GET OFF THE GOD HANG UP.
Your Church teaches this not me, It is a lie from hell, and you try and divart the topics some place else.
I answer more questions than you care to admit, Maybe you dont understand my reply, But I doubt it, I think you dont like my replys.
But to answer your question about Demonations, I did a long article on my blog about it, I sugest you read it. But A short overview is this.
Demonations are not in the bible and they are not of God. These are a result of us humans being sinners and wanting our way, not agreing with God. As I said to you before, Satan said to Eve, DID GOD REALLY SAY. We dont agree with God that is why we have demonations. Yes Christians can differ on minor points, like baptism, should you dunk or sprinkle, Yes we can differ on points like paying a tithe, Etc. But if we differ on the major points, like the trinity, or who is Jesus ETC, those that are wrong are not believers. Your so-called Minor differences between us and you are really major and are lies from hell.
So yes their is a world of difference. Even paul spoke about this in Gal. You gonna answer my questions? Who are these false teachers, what is this false Gospel, false Doctrine the bible speaks of?
What about all the bible verses that speak about walking away from the truth, walking away from God, Loving a lie, being decived, having your faith shipwrecked, Jesus saying I never knew you. Like I said, your Doctrinal difference are really major and are heresy. Minor things like Baptim and how it is done, or Worship on sat or sun, is minor. Rick b
Answer my question rick. Period..
As a Christian what are you afraid of..
Wer62
Ed, What are you afraid of? You seem to avoid my questions like the plague. As to your question, I am not afraid of nothing. Rick b
Come on Rick, Wer62 has already agreed to post entire new topics on the other issue you want addressed as well as others. You will have plenty of opportunities to address those other issues. This thread is "Are Mormons Christians?" and Wer62 has put it very clearly and plainly to you. As someone who is notorious for boasting "LDS never answer my questions!- LDS never answer my questions!" on your own BLOG why step up and be reasonable for once. The ball is clearly in your court.
Ed avoids my questions like the plague. their is now 24 replys. this new one of mine makes 25, if I missed answering a question please point it out an I will reply, can WER62 answer my questions?
wer62 Gives long replys with lots of words, but short on answers. And to you Anonymous, As I said already, or did you ignore what I wrote, The Issue of other Gods Us being Gods and polgamy all fall under the Topic of, Are mormons Christians. As I said, it falls under it because this shows you are not Christians. rick b
looks' who's calling the kettle black on writing long reply's. rick you give long reply's
oh come on Rick, grow up already. Wer62 is clearly, plainly, oviously asking you a very specific question. This is not rocket science we are dealing with here. It is elementary and the way most people converse with one another. Can you not just have a reasonable conversation?
Wer62 has not said he will not answer your questions- that is YOUR fabrication. Wer62 has clearly said that he would post on the topic as well as a topic related to a question asked by just_curious.
Anyone observing this interaction Rick knows Wer62 is not trying to dodge your questions. Rather he is trying to proceed in a reasonable and measured fashion that might actually lead to a mature healthy discussion.
If you can just take a deep breath and relax some i am sure you to can engage in a genuine mature conversation. Mature conversations are a bit like a tennis game. Back and forth, back and forth gently in tiny respectful baby steps a little bit at a time. It may not seem like much at the time but if you can have some patience before you know it you can play a whole game like that.
You might find this more gentle measured approach a bit more effective in the long run as compared to barfing all over the place with your now infamous condecending hellfire damnation routine.
Take a deep breath, relax, be willing to listen as much as you speak, try to treat others with respect and you might be amazed at how much better things can work out.
Some how Anonymous, unless I missed something, I recall asking Ed about verses in the bible 4-5 times. Not only does he apper to dodge those questions but his reply about doing other topics apply to polagamy and can we be gods. Unless I am wrong and I dont believe I am, why dont you show me where he said he would do a topic on those verses.
And I did say, if I missed answering a question please point me to it and I will reply. Rick b
Rick, you need to pay closer attention. If you can put as much effort into listening and trying to understand others as you do to blasting everyone you can probably get along much better here.
Rick, Lets look at what your very first comment here on this thread is. Your very first comment on the topic of “Are Mormons Christian?” is as follows.
Ricks comment: “Ed, Better yet, Instead of Christians saying, LDS are not Christians, Let us say instead, we do not serve the same God.”
From the very outset, from your very first comment you have tried to change the subject and focus of the topic of this post. You have basically said hey, lets not talk about “Are Mormons Christian” it would be better if we talk about blah, blah, blah,. This is NOT what this topic and thread is about. You then go on to dump your load of stuff all over the place. Wer62 is not dodging your questions. He is trying to stay on topic and conduct a dialogue in a fashion that will allow it to actually make sense and work.
Again, here is the question clearly put to you that you need to answer, which you have not.
Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination NON Christian?
I think if you could slow down some and chill out a bit you would be better able to follow along- not to mention probably enjoy this more. Think tiny baby steps back and forth.
Anonymous said: From the very outset, from your very first comment you have tried to change the subject and focus of the topic of this post. You have basically said hey, lets not talk about “Are Mormons Christian” it would be better if we talk about blah, blah, blah,. This is NOT what this topic and thread is about.
I don't believe that Rick has gone off topic with these responses. I agree that his responses were more blunt and harsh than was required. However, they do seem to be on topic. His questions and comments are relatively clear because he believes that the reply to the question/topic of "Are Mormons Christians" is no.
Perhaps the problem is that you only want to read from people that believe that Mormons are Christians. Just because you claim to be a Christian, doesn’t necessarily mean that you are one. So when someone asks if you believe that you will become gods someday…..that is valid. I don’t believe that it is consistent with God’s word at all.
One example is found with the Pharisee’s. They clearly believed that they were following God’s plan for them. They believed very strongly that they were righteous. They believed very strongly that they had an accurate interpretation of scripture that clearly was not true. So merely believing that you follow Jesus, doesn’t mean that you are truly following Jesus. I am not comparing you with the Pharisee’s; I am merely trying to make a point.
I look forward to seeing Ed’s topic about whether or not the LDS believe that they will become gods someday, because it does make a difference on this whole topic. I hope that the communications on that topic can be less harsh. However, from the looks of the other responses, that may be too much to ask for. The thing to remember here is that these issues are important and people’s eternal souls may be hanging in the balance. My hope is that people will learn, grow and be drawn closer to the true Jesus Christ.
add to that i say you can't and you won't answer the question's they are right their answer them. you can't because you don't know my jesus.
I'll answer. Being a Christian is about a personal relationship with God. It has nothing to do with denominations. I believe that even a Catholic can be saved; I don't believe I've seen one, but that's a different issue.
Now, let's address my issue with Ed's comment about non-denomination being a denomination. It is impossible for a non-denominational church to be a denomination because of the "non". That would mean "not." So, how can something that's "not" be something?
Now that that's out of the way. I also have not seen a response to many of the questions I've asked. Personally, I think you're dodging them, but I could care less whether or not you answer them. If you want to know which ones I'm asking about, why don't you look?
Not_So_Anonymous,
no, we all understand that you and Rick feel that the differences in the way we understand God are important to whether we can be considered Christians in your view. That is clear. But there is a difference and a distinction in what Wer62 is asking and is the point of this specific topic that Rick is missing because he does not pay close enough attention and is too eager to assert his agenda.
Go back and re-read carefully. There will be plenty of time to get to all the other differences i am sure.
Anonymous,
Let me set the record straight.
First off, you said I changed the Topic. No I did not. My simple answer all along has been No Mormons Are not Christians.
I did not change the Topic by saying lets reword it, You dont like what I said, theirfore you put words in my mouth and claim I changed the topic. If LDS call them selves Christians, then they do claim to worship the same God I do, Ed even admits this. So to be more accurte, we must ask, do we follow the same God.
Now, You get mad at me for being Blunt and Bold. I will do a topic pointing out Mormon Prophets Like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young for example, being Bold and Blunt. I will point out People in the Bible doing the same thing. Will you then reply how I am different from them, or why is their a double standerd?
Now Anonymous, Let me ask you, can you back up your claims or will you ignore my next question? You said to me, I accuse LDS of not answering my questions on my blog, then in turn I dont answer yours.
Lets see here, I have answered every question or stated for the record, Point them out and I will reply. But
I have had to "remind" Ed about Questions it appers he missed, as many as 4 times. If this is not dodging Questions then I dont know what is. He replys, I am busy, But I told him, I dont buy that reply, Simply because, he replys to other questions and posts new topics.
On my blog, a poster who posted under the name Hmmmm? He points out LDS do answer my questions and give good answers.
So to show him the truth, I did a topic just for him, It is called Reply to Hmmm?
The short answer of that topic is this,I posted 23 topics that are about Doctrine or salvation, Out of those 23 topics only 4 have replys by LDS members. and out of those 4 replyed to, only one or two LDS replyed to them and the replys are not that great, that leaves 19 with no answer. You do the math, does that sound like LDS are answering me or dodging me?
Last point for you Anonymous. You said Wer62 does answer me, Unless your really him, and I doubt it, I sugest you dont reply for him. He said he would do topics on Polgamy and Are we Gods, He never said he would answer my questions or do topics on them. You said, Ed would "POST TOPICS" Well simply saying in a genearl Sence, I will post topics, really does not answer my question.
This does not lay out a clear case that topics will be posted or the exact nature of those topics. Then As RG stated, Ed does dodge questions. The question RG Stated Ed appers to have Dodged, I am familer with it. How I know is, RG asked me the same exact Question, and Asked Ed and me both to reply to it, and post it on My Blog, Wer's blog and RG's blog.
RG asked almost a month ago, if this is not a dodge, I dont know what is. Rick b
Someone posted as "not_so_annonymous" on August 18, 2006 10:23 PM...this was not me. Whoever is wrongly posting as "not_so_annonymous", grow up. Are lies and deceit your only tools?
Rick,
One more time.
Again, here is the question clearly put to you that you need to answer, which you have not. “Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denominations NON Christian?”
I realize that you do not “believe” you have changed the subject. But you have missed the vital distinction here. LOOK CLOSELY!! When you say “Ed, Better yet, Instead of Christians saying, LDS are not Christians, Let us say instead, we do not serve the same God.” When taking this approach you have changed the emphasis of this post. You are blind to the distinction being made here. To address the issue of “we do not serve the same God” makes this a discussion about DOCTRINE- and not about the definition of the word Christian as it is generally used. Believers with a wide variety of differing doctrines still refer to each other as Christians. As I see it Wer62 is not dodging questions regarding doctrine rather he is trying to keep on target for the time being but you seem to not read carefully enough. Remember the tennis match analogy?- it is not necessary to swallow the whole ball of wax at one time- baby steps remember. The next baby step you need to take is to answer this question. Here it is yet again. “Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denominations NON Christian?”
No, I am not going to answer your question because 1. It is a tangent and not related to the issue at hand. 2. I am not interested in having a drawn out discussion with you.
No, I am not going to answer your question because 1. It is a tangent and not related to the issue at hand. 2. I am not interested in having a drawn out discussion with you.
Better yet, You cannot, but you would never admit that so you reword it to look like you could when in reality you cannot.
To answer your question, I dont care what demonation you want to label your self, If you deny the bible or change it to fit your beliefe then no you are not a Christian.
The bible says, even the demons believe, yet they tremble. The demons believe, but are they saved? No they are not. Rick b
Let me add just to clarify for you, about what I said, about I dont care what Denomonation you are.
If LDS feel they simply are a Christian Denomonation and theirfore I were to say, well I must be a mormon, and go around telling people I am an LDS member, but deny the LDS teachings you wouls say I cannot be an LDS member.
I even adressed this issue on my blog, under a topic I called (What if). Then sure enough, The poster who goes by INHIMDEPENDINT-LDS came on and stated I simply could not label myself an LDS member but deny the LDS teachings.
So Anonymous, read it for yourself, then explain how an Active LDS member "Corrects" me on the Issue, saying I would be lying to call myself a mormon but deny the teachings.
Yet mormons can call themselves Christians and deny the teachings. Then I suspect you will reply to me about saying you can answer my questions you simply refuse. I want to adress that before you reply. I cannot tell you how many times I hear LDS say that to me.
Do they teach you to reply with that. You might feel I dont really want an answer or I might not care, But remember, we are not talking in private, this is an open forum of sorts, with many people who will never reply only read.
I am happy to see the LDS refuse to answer, Believe however you want, But I have heard from people who tell me they believe LDS do not reply because they cannot.
So while you feel I dont want to hear you, their are the silent majorty who look on and will turn to Christ and deny the false god of mormonism, simply because LDS refused to answer, theirfore giving the idea they really cannot.
When I get to heaven, if even one person says, thank you rick, the LDS who "refused" to reply was the evidence I needed to turn to Christ was enough for me, then it was worth it for me.
But I know, you will give your reply saying I am crazy, but I suspect that will be the case. rick b
Rick,
Ok, you got me. Your right. I cannot possibly answer your question. You are simply to intelligent for me whereas I am just a mere dullard. Beyond that I have absolutely no idea what my own church teaches or what I personally believe whereas you on the other hand are an expert on the LDS Church and know better than anyone here both what your own curch teaches and what the LDS church teaches. I am a fool to have ever tried to pretend this was not the case. You are clearly right and I am clearly wrong.
Now that we have firmly established your vast superiority and authority on the matter maybe we can get back to the issue at hand.
The question is not about what denomination I want to call myself. Read carefully.
Again, here is the question clearly put to you that you need to answer, which you have not. “Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denominations NON Christian?”
Anonymous may need to re-read (as he/she keeps asking everyone else to do)....
Rick has already answered the question in a general sense.
Rick B. said: To answer your question, I dont care what demonation you want to label your self, If you deny the bible or change it to fit your beliefe then no you are not a Christian.
Stop getting hung up on denominations. Rick has stated how he feels on this. Anyone who says that all religous denominations are NON Christian; don't have a leg to stand on. It is an unfair generalization.
Oh well. I am sure that you will find a way that Rick has still not answered your question. So this silly conversation will likely continue. I guess it is now your serve on the tennis match.
Anonymous said...
Again, here is the question clearly put to you that you need to answer, which you have not. “Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denominations NON Christian?”
The BoM clearly teaches, their are only 2 Churches, the true church of lamb and the church of the devil.
The BoM teaches and mormons agree that if your not part of the church of the lamb, then your part of the devils church.
So it appers the LDS church believes that no other religous group is a christian church.
then read what bruce m says in the book, mormon doctrine, I own the oringal 1958 edtion and bruce has nothing nice to say about the catholic church. bruce would call the catholic church the church of the devil. So an LDS member says a religous denomnation is not christian. does this help any? Should I post a scanned copy as evidence for you? rick b
Anonymous, Let me refresh your memory as to what your Church Founder said, Supposdely God told him this.
Pearl of Great Price, under
Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18: My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”
So it looks like, to answer your question AGAIN, Even God feels that a church Denonation is not of him if it is wrong.
Lets add what Bruce said n the Book Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, page 137-138, under Church of the devil, he says just what I said. I quote Mr. McConkie,
The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL CHURCHESor organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.
Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page,
Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Now if you know Mormonism as well as you say you do, then Clearly according to bruce, Our Church fits the desription given, because what we believe verses what Bruce states here, do not line up. and according to Bruce, we are the leading people astray. Rick b
That is a lot of information about what Rick claims the LDS Church teaches but why is it that i still do not know if Rick is willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination NON Christian?
Perhaps it is just the dullard in me?
anonymous, define the word dullard to me. because i defend my husband there is no need for you to get upset. if you want to play a fair game of tennis you have to allow my husband to serve first.
not_so_anonymous,
a dullard is one who is regarded as mentally dull or somewhat slow or what is somtimes called a dolt.
I have used the word only in reference to myself and to none other and i am not upset.
Anonymous, I am through playing your Games, I answerd your questions so many times that you simply want me to tell you what you want to hear.
As to the lot of Info, so say I claim the LDS church teaches. I guess you really dont like what your Church teaches, I dont your Church says it, JS and BM said it, it is fact that anyone with a copy of the Pearl can read for themselves and anyone who has the Oringal 1958 mormon Doctrine has, I can post if it you like. Rick b
Anonymous, You said i still do not know if Rick is willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination NON Christian?
I guess I will answer it one last time,
Here is a list of RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS
Muslims, JW's, Christian Science, Buddist's, BAHI Faith, Satanists, TM, Wiccaa.
All these Groups are RELIGIOUS GROUPS, No they are not Christian, they even admit they are not Christian, We have a very large Muslim Population here in St Paul, they are very adimint in their beliefe they are not Christian and the want Nothing to do with Jesus.
If this clearly does not answer your Question then Something is very wrong. Rick b
One Last thing Anonymous, IT appers Ed has left the room, No word On my questions from him, or no word to RG about his questions, No sonner does ED leave then you suddnely apper and sometimes Speak for him. Just my thought. Rick b
Once again someone has practiced deceit. Some pathetic individual has now decided to pretend to be me again. Your lies and deceit are just sad and quite frankly, a clear work of the devil.
The following posting is not me:
not_so_anonymous said...
anonymous, define the word dullard to me. because i defend my husband there is no need for you to get upset. if you want to play a fair game of tennis you have to allow my husband to serve first.
August 20, 2006 12:47 AM
Unfortunately, this is the kind of tactics that some people seem to use to "help" the LDS.
I find it strange that people think that lying and deceiving is the way to help. Those are tools of the devil. I don't believe that either side of this discussion thinks that lying is the way to convince people.
I honestly think that Anonymous is the person coming on and pretending to be the not-so-anonymous person. rick b
Wow.. Lots of posts. Ok.. Just to let everyone know. My PC lost a hard drive and I am now back online. I had backups of all my writing so I did not lose anything except time online.
I am starting on responses now as I have not had the opportunity to read them I am sure they will be "interesting".
Wer62
No, I have not posted as “not_so_anonymous” Rick.
Ricks comments:- All these Groups are RELIGIOUS GROUPS, No they are not Christian, they even admit they are not Christian, We have a very large Muslim Population here in St Paul, they are very adimint in their beliefe they are not Christian and the want Nothing to do with Jesus.-
Rick we are not concerned here with groups that have nothing to do with Jesus. Those groups are not different denominations of Christ followers, they are different religions. What we are concerned with here as related to this question are denominations of people claiming to follow Jesus such as: Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals etc..
In case the question has not been clear here it is clarified for you.
Again, here is the question clearly put to you that you need to answer, which you have not. “Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination such as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals NON Christian?”
[This section for Just Curious]
Just Curious Stated:
“I was hoping that you could help me to better understand the LDS on this topic. If it is not true that the LDS believe that they will become gods someday, just say that. I was trying to dispell a myth I had heard.”
Wer62 Replies:
I will be happy to answer your question just not in this thread. I will be writing an article this week that will explain the LDS position on the subject. I do not want to get hung up on doctrinal differences in this thread. We could talk on doctrine all day long and get no where to a conclusion of conversation. If someone does not agree with the doctrine of the LDS church then that is fine with me to a point but to say we are not Christians based on the Standard Language definition of Christian to me is unacceptable. There are many protestant religions that do not agree on a great many topics including some as important as the Trinity. That debate has been raging for over 2000 years and I do not believe we are going to solve any world conclusion to that doctrine in this thread. So we know that Rick for example does not believe the LDS are Christians based on doctrinal teachings. That is his choice but is there any other reason for the LDS not being Christians?
Anyway, I will be happy to produce an article that will answer your questions and actually I have had time to think about it will be interesting when published to see what the opposition has to say about it.
-------------------------------
[This section for Anonymous]
Anonymous August 18, 2006 6:07 PM Stated:
“Come on Rick, Wer62 has already agreed to post entire new topics on the other issue you want addressed as well as others. You will have plenty of opportunities to address those other issues.”
Wer62 Replies:
Thanks for the support – it is nice to see someone that “gets it”. Of course understand it gives me great comfort to know that so many of Ricks friends are out to attack the LDS church and those who represent them. If it were not true it could simply be swept under the rug and not bothered with. What I find interesting is the fact that the LDS that post rarely attack other religions only defend our religion. I know I do not go to Evangelical, Non Denomination or Catholic sites and start ragging on their doctrine. Very few if any LDS do this and why, because it is the best interest of the LDS to teach what we believe and let the people decide for themselves. There is a phrase that has been coined that you can leave the LDS Church but you can not leave them alone. In some cases they do not even have to be members and they still cannot leave it alone. Why all the attention if it were not true? Of course these are things you probably already know. I just find it funny.
Anonymous August 18, 2006 7:34 PM Stated:
This is not rocket science we are dealing with here. It is elementary and the way most people converse with one another. Can you not just have a reasonable conversation? … Take a deep breath, relax, be willing to listen as much as you speak, try to treat others with respect and you might be amazed at how much better things can work out.”
Wer62 Replies:
Talking about hitting the nail on the head, I will give Rick one thing. He is fervent no matter how wrong he is. I suspect that Rick does not want to invalidate the other religions because that invalidates his argument and would make him look bad. I would love for him to comment either one way or the other.
-------------------------
[This Section for not_so_anonymous]
not_so_Anon Stated on August 18, 2006 10:16 PM
“His questions and comments are relatively clear because he believes that the reply to the question/topic of "Are Mormons Christians" is no.”
Wer62 Replies:
We all know that Rick does not believe Mormons are Christians but that was not my question. Rick made a claim that Mormons are not Christians based on Doctrinal differences – How does that play out with other religious groups that have doctrinal differences. I mean I think I was pretty plain in my earlier response that stated that even Protestant groups burned each other at the stake for such “minor differences”. So it is OK for one to be different from the other but not some other group based on the same criteria “doctrinal differences”?
not_so_Anon Continues on August 18, 2006 10:16 PM
“Perhaps the problem is that you only want to read from people that believe that Mormons are Christians. Just because you claim to be a Christian, doesn’t necessarily mean that you are one.”
Wer62 Replies:
It doesn’t NOT make me a Christian either, Based on standard language definition of Christian I am a follower of Christ even if you Rick does not believe so. As for my reading material, I can assure you that I have a pretty broad reading selection from a great many religious denominations. This is why I can quote people like “Drummond” for example who was considered a great protestant religious writer.
not_so_Anon Continues on August 18, 2006 10:16 PM
“So when someone asks if you believe that you will become gods someday…..that is valid. I don’t believe that it is consistent with God’s word at all.”
Wer62 Replies:
But if it could be shown in the scriptures you would convert to the LDS Church and call your previous denomination NON Christian? Just asking?
not_so_Anon Continues on August 18, 2006 10:16 PM
“One example is found with the Pharisee’s. They clearly believed that they were following God’s plan for them. They believed very strongly that they were righteous. They believed very strongly that they had an accurate interpretation of scripture that clearly was not true. So merely believing that you follow Jesus, doesn’t mean that you are truly following Jesus. I am not comparing you with the Pharisee’s; I am merely trying to make a point.”
Wer62 Replies:
And I can accept that argument, as long as you understand that works both ways. It is possible that you may be the ones in error as to interpretation of Doctrine. As long as you will consider that fact then I have no issue with your statement. Thank you for a reasoned response, this is more what I was looking for from Rick.
not_so_Anon Continues on August 18, 2006 10:16 PM
“My hope is that people will learn, grow and be drawn closer to the true Jesus Christ. “
Wer62 Replies:
Mine too..
not_so_Anon Continues on August 19, 2006 8:21 PM
“Stop getting hung up on denominations. Rick has stated how he feels on this. Anyone who says that all religous denominations are NON Christian; don't have a leg to stand on. It is an unfair generalization.”
Wer62 States:
Really, how so.. There is only One Lord one Baptism and One Church. If someone wants to condemn based on one set of rules they cannot change the rules for the others. That would be the “UNFAIR”
not_so_Anon Continues on August 19, 2006 8:21 PM
“I guess it is now your serve on the tennis match.”
Wer62 Replies:
Actually you served I just returned. ;-)
not_so_Anon States:
“Unfortunately, this is the kind of tactics that some people seem to use to "help" the LDS.”
Wer62 Replies:
This type of deceit does not help the LDS at all, in fact it is quite the opposite. I am not going to say it wasn’t an LDS person because it could have been but it also could have been someone from your side or even you to attempt to show that the LDS lie. Remember, as Rick has said. “But remember, we are not talking in private, this is an open forum of sorts, with many people who will never reply only read.” This is an open forum and there are people that could not be from either side just here to cause problems. Without proof who knows for sure. Perhaps I should move to only registered accounts only.
------------------------
[This Section for Roaming Gnome]
Roaming G States:
“I'll answer. Being a Christian is about a personal relationship with God. It has nothing to do with denominations.”
Wer62 Replies:
Great answer… I agree, I still consider you and Rick and Ricks wife a Christian. In my eyes no matter how much I disagree with your doctrine I do recognize that each are attempting to follow Christ by what they have learned to the best of their ability. This to me is what Christ is looking for.
Roaming G States:
It is impossible for a non-denominational church to be a denomination because of the "non". That would mean "not." So, how can something that's "not" be something?
Wer62 Replies
See my comments to Rick concerning this subject. Look up the definition of Denomination – There are a number of Calvary Non Denominational Churches. By definition this is a denomination. Perhaps while we are on this subject we can have a small aside and will you answer if you go to the same Church as Rick? Just curious.
Roaming States:
I also have not seen a response to many of the questions I've asked. Personally, I think you're dodging them … why don't you look?
Wer62 Replies:
Roaming, I am not intentionally dodging your questions however I do know that I have not had the time to answer your questions in the manner I would like. Rick takes up a good deal of my time and unfortunately he is less forgiving when he does not get an answer. I will attempt to ignore Rick when warranted and get to some of your questions. Please accept my apologies.
-------------------
[This section for Rick]
Rick Stated:
“Ed avoids my questions like the plague. their is now 24 replys. this new one of mine makes 25, if I missed answering a question please point it out an I will reply, can WER62 answer my questions?”
Wer62 Replies:
Yes Rick, I can answer your questions but like you have told me, this type of communication is not for debate. You on your blog have refused to continue in answering some of my questions there and I agree with your assessment. So please forgive me but I am not going to answer your questions in this set of threads. I will write articles to answer your question(s). This is what you have done on your blog and I agree with this assessment. I have already told you that I would write an article for you concerning polygamy. I am looking forward to it.
Now, let’s keep to the scope of the question that I asked you. My take from this point is you believe Mormons are not Christians based on Doctrinal differences. We all understand that and you have given numerous examples.
1. Is there any other reason you believe that the LDS are not Christians?
2. Do you understand what Standard Language Definition means?
Christian – Those that follow Christ and the Official name of the LDS Church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”. We attempt to follow Christ to the best of our ability.
Rick States:
“wer62 Gives long replys with lots of words, but short on answers.”
Wer62 Replies:
I could say the same about you, especially in light of the fact that you twist scripture and misrepresent LDS doctrine and the use of the JOD. An answer from you that is so far off base that one has to wonder what were you thinking?
Now that we got the insults out of the way can we get back to the conversation?
Rick Stated on August 18, 2006 7:44 PM
“Not only does he apper to dodge those questions but his reply about doing other topics apply to polagamy and can we be gods. Unless I am wrong and I dont believe I am, why dont you show me where he said he would do a topic on those verses.”
Wer62 Replies:
Here ya go Rick, I said this on August 18, 2006 1:45 AM
“(For Just Curious). I will answer your question in another topic, not this one as I will not discuss in this thread any doctrinal differences or explain them further. That is not the point of my article.”
“So out of this I owe an article for Rick concerning Polygamy and I owe one to Just Curious about if LDS believe they can become gods. Is that correct so far?”
Rick are you ready to admit you were wrong on this one?
Rick Stated on August 18, 2006 3:02 PM
“In reality, when I or anyone else Posts replys on Polagamy are you going to be a God ETC, this is about your topic at hand. This shows you are not a Christian, so yes it does fit the Topic.”
Wer62 Replies:
Rick the topic of this thread is Are Mormons Christians, and If you believe that Mormons are not Christians based on Doctrinal beliefs then that is fine state that and move on. The topic of this thread is not Polygamy or d Do LDS believe they can become “gods”. Those are topics unto themselves. If you can’t see that for what it is, then I feel sorry for you.
Rick Continues on August 18, 2006 3:02 PM
“I love how you say as you said to me before when we were writing Private emails, GET OFF THE GOD HANG UP.
Your Church teaches this not me, It is a lie from hell, and you try and divart the topics some place else.”
Wer62 Replies:
Exactly Rick, one you do not understand what you are saying from an LDS perspective and two you like in this case are twisting the conversation into something it is not to fit your agenda. Just because you say a doctrine is untrue does not make it so. You could be wrong!!!! You have on several occasions called me a liar. You are wrong on all cases of this. You will be judged on your comments and I hope you apologize for them so that you do not get judged that way. The choice however is yours to make.
Rick Continues on August 18, 2006 3:02 PM
I think you dont like my replys.
Wer62 Replies:
It matters not if I like your replies or not. I am about facts. You are about emotion. The fact is Rick, you will have to wait until I write the article and the more I have to contend with you and your outbursts of emotion the less time I have to write the articles. I am about concise communication.
Rick Continues on August 18, 2006 3:02 PM
Demonations are not in the bible and they are not of God.
Really?, The church at Corinth is a denomination or perhaps you did not catch that. Denomination as defined - a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. So you see Roaming G and Rick, Calvary Non Denomination is a denomination. My father-in-law is a preacher at a Calvary Non Denomination in Missouri. So you see by definition the Lords Church is a denomination. That church to me is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No one goes to a Church that believes it is second best or teaches something that is not of Christ. Therefore I submit to you that no matter what I believe you will tell me I am wrong. Now the Question you still have not answered is “Are all other Churches not of your Denomination NON Christian”. If you exclude the LDS Church based on Doctrine you MUST reject all others as NON Christian too by your definition. I on the other hand took a different approach and use the “standard language definition” of the word Christian as those who follow Christ. I believe that any church that professes to follow Christ and uses any of the Scriptures that I believe that includes just the Bible is Christian in nature. Do I believe they are the most correct denomination, NO I believe the Church I go to is the most correct, and so should you or why would you go there, Right? Now Rick, are you going to answer that question now that I have fully explained it to you? If you cannot exclude other religions based on Doctrinal beliefs no matter how small then you must put the LDS back into the Christian realm or be labeled a hypocrite. Your choice.
Rick Continues on August 18, 2006 3:02 PM
You gonna answer my questions? Who are these false teachers, … What about all the bible verses that speak about walking away from the truth, walking away from God, Loving a lie, being decived, having your faith shipwrecked, Jesus saying I never knew you.
Wer62 States:
You mean like Muslims, Islamic, Shinto, and Hindu? These would be false teachings that lead people away from Christ. Mormonism does not lead people from Christ any more than your “NON Denomination” does.
Rick Continues on August 18, 2006 3:02 PM
Like I said, your Doctrinal difference are really major and are heresy. Minor things like Baptim and how it is done, or Worship on sat or sun, is minor.
Wer62 States:
REALLY!!! The Lords Ordinances are Minor? Wow… I can’t say I agree. That is what I call heresy.
Rick Stated August 19, 2006 1:19 PM
“He replys, I am busy, But I told him, I dont buy that reply, Simply because, he replys to other questions and posts new topics.”
Wer62 Replies:
Rick Really, you act as if I owe you something. Really I have my responsibilities in order. My God, My family, My Work, My hobbies… You come a distant last especially in the light in which you treat and accuse me of things. You are the most impatient person I know. If You do not get your answer right away you are screaming I am ignoring you or I am dodging the question. Simply put Rick, I have a very demanding schedule and If I do not choose to answer a question it is my choice to do so. In fact I often ask myself what is the point you will just call me a liar anyway.. then after that you will discount the answer altogether and say the LDS don’t answer you. In fact I have considered deleting all of your posts due to lack of value and condescending nature but then it occurred to me you are the best example of why people would join the LDS church instead of your denomination. In fact a friend of mine who goes to the Calvary Non Denomination church replied to you and you beat him over the head too just because he was my friend and he agrees with your doctrinal position. He just tried to explain to you that I am not such a bad guy. To put it bluntly he called you a “prick”. Again I defended you saying ignorance while not the best defense is all that you have. You cannot condemn those that are ignorant of the truth. I find it interesting that one of your fellow Calvary Non Denominational members while not in the same area would judge you so harshly since you are suppose to be learning some similar doctrine.
Rick Stated August 19, 2006 1:19 PM
“The short answer of that topic is this,I posted 23 topics that are about Doctrine or salvation, Out of those 23 topics only 4 have replys by LDS members. and out of those 4 replyed to, only one or two LDS replyed to them and the replys are not that great, that leaves 19 with no answer. You do the math, does that sound like LDS are answering me or dodging me?”
Wer62 Replies:
It is not that the LDS cannot answer your questions it is the fact they do not want to put up with your abuse. Weather you like it or not, it is NOT just an LDS perspective that thinks you are abusive in your approach to the gospel. If that is your goal to offend then so be it, but it is not the best conversion method. You are so busy telling us what is wrong you never deliver any message of what is right within your beliefs. I find that amusing personally
Bur really rick, this is all off topic. BUT HEY, YOU GOT YOUR ANSWER and that is all that counts right.
Rick States:
Last point for you Anonymous. You said Wer62 does answer me, Unless your really him, and I doubt it, I sugest you dont reply for him.
Wer62 Replies:
Rick, do not make requests of the guests here on my blog and tell them not to reply. Please that is just down right rude and uncalled for. I have not deleted anything you wrote and I have never said not to ask questions, I may want to put the conversation in context of the article but even when it isn’t I do not delete it. Perhaps my policy should change. What do you think? You want people to stay on topic and have personally stated to me that this forum does not lend itself toward debate and yet here you are debating on my site. Unbelievable your hypocrisy. Bottom Line, this is my blog not yours, go tell your users not to write or continue to delete comments when you don’t like what is said. I find it amazing that there are a number of people that come here and complain of you doing just that.
Rick States and passes judgment again:
You said, Ed would "POST TOPICS" Well simply saying in a genearl Sence, I will post topics, really does not answer my question.
Wer62 Replies:
Most people understand if you ask a question and I state that I will post a topic on it that it will be to answer the question and put additional information concerning that topic. Only you do not get this. Let me point out that you have done the same thing on your blog. Another example of your hypocrisy.
Rick Stated:
How I know is, RG asked me the same exact Question, and Asked Ed and me both to reply to it, and post it on My Blog, Wer's blog and RG's blog.
Wer62 Replies,
You better be glad I did not respond to that one. Now that you brought it back up I feel inclined to state the following. RG certainly was not neutral in his article posted. He blasted me and said nothing about you. He wanted me to be quiet and say nothing but you it was ok for you to go off on me while you could have just said “Thank you for the help and then go about your business. Did you do that NO.. Neither you or RG seem to recognize that fact. You make it difficult to be a good neighbor in the future. Happy you have your answer now.. I was attempting to do what you said to do.. Not defend my position. Funny you say one thing and then beat me over the head either way I go. You are truly a hypocrite.
Rick Stated:
Yet mormons can call themselves Christians and deny the teachings.
Wer62 Replies:
We do not deny the teachings of Christ we just deny your interpretation of them. Big difference.
Rick States:
When I get to heaven, if even one person says, thank you rick, the LDS who "refused" to reply was the evidence I needed to turn to Christ was enough for me, then it was worth it for me.
Wer62 Replies:
You mean unless the Lord turns you away and says I knew you not and condemns you for leading people astray.. ;-)
Rick Quotes:
ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN,
Wer62 Replies,
I agree Rick, that false teachings are false teachings and do not make God happy. Yet you still follow those false creeds. Even at that it gives me no judgement to call you a NON CHRISTIAN based on this. You may not be responsible for your learning of this doctrine. You are attempting to follow Christ to the “best” of your ability to do so. (sometimes I wonder on this based on your attitude and you propensity to judge others) but never the less – You in my eyes are still a Christian, yet you condemn me otherwise. As for Joseph Smith did say that he should join non of them and I agree I have joined the Church that is authorized by the LORD,. He said the professors are all corrupt, rick you are no professor. He did not say that the members are not worth saving or that the followers of those churches are bad. He just said not to follow them but to follow the Lord.
You later quote McConkie on Church of the devil, yet you fail to understand that it is churches that purposely lead people away from Christ. Do you think your church is purposely leading people away from Christ or keeping people from the saving ordinances of Christ. No, I don’t I think it does the best with what it has. That however does not make it the authorized Church of the Lord. Again something you failed to understand. I would more classify Muslims, Islamic, Hindu ect ect.
Now Rick, let me ask you again, are you wiling to judge all other religious denominations on the same criteria that you judge the LDS Church and call them NON CHRISTIAN? It is a yes or no question. YES meaning YES you think all other religions other than your own are NON CHRISTIAN.
Rick States:
Here is a list of RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS
Muslims, JW's, Christian Science, Buddist's, BAHI Faith, Satanists, TM, Wiccaa.
All these Groups are RELIGIOUS GROUPS, No they are not Christian, they even admit they are not Christian, We have a very large Muslim Population here in St Paul, they are very adimint in their beliefe they are not Christian and the want Nothing to do with Jesus.
Wer62 Replies:
But Rick, JW’s and Mormons of this list do profess to follow Christ, are you sure this is your list. If you include JW’s and Mormons why not Pentecostals? I belive you said if they do not believe in the Trinity they are not Christian. So do Pentecostals fall in your list too?
Rick States:
I honestly think that Anonymous is the person coming on and pretending to be the not-so-anonymous person.
Wer62 Replies:
Rick, that is an unfounded conclusion. Unless you have proof you would be better off saying nothing. Read my reply to No_So_Anon.
=======================
[This section for All]
For those that wrote me private e-mails asking about my Dad (some of which did not post in this thread but noticed my absence and knowing that I do not leave this that unattended, Thank you for your support. For those that do not know, my dad is doing well as of right now. He has been moved from the ICU to long term care. It is clear that things can change quickly and he has been given less than a year to live. Again thanks to all that cared and wrote.
whew Ed what a move, i just had my internet connected. i came here to see what's going on and boy alot has happend i see. i have kept you and your family in my prayer's, and i am happy to hear your father is out of the wood's per'se. although doctor's tell you your father has less then a year to live, i beg to differ, our which art in heaven has the last say in that! until then keep your chin up high!
(our father ) i forgot father in my last posting.
Ed: I am pleased to hear that your father is doing better. I know how much a drain that can be.
ED, You guys simply are Blind, I hve answered your question about six different ways. I will reply one last time.
First off, Show me in the Bible, use the BoM for all I care, Where God the father Himself creates denomonations? THey are not of God, they are of Man. LIke I said I dont care what you call yourself, If you reject Gods word you reject him, If you call Gods word A lie, you say God lies.
Read again Gal 1:6-9, Paul speals of a different Gospel, he says if you believe or teach or follow a different Gospel, you will be accursed. God says he is coming back with flaming vengange upon all who do not know him.
Paul and God, do not say if you follow a different Denomonation you are accursed. THe mormon Gospel is a different Gospel than what paul taught. Show me where paul teaches the Restored Gospel.
THen you said, I belive you said if they do not believe in the Trinity they are not Christian. So do Pentecostals fall in your list too?
I honestly do not know what each Indaviduely Denomnation Believes, But again, if they deny the Bible, they are calling God a liar and I dont believe they are saved.
THen you said, these various groups burned each other at the stake over various doctrinal differences. So what, If they murder over these things, then the fact that they commited murder should be enough to tell you they dont know the word or even God himnself. HIs word is clear on the subject of murder.
But also his word tells us, people will kill others thinking they are doing God a service. THat should be enough evidence they are not believers.
Then, as I said before, People claim they know God and or Jesus, BUt God says in His Word, Many in that last day shall say unto me, LORD, LORD, Did we not perform miracles in your name, did we not do this, that and the other thing in your name. God will say to them, depart from me into everlasting fire, for I NEVER KNEW YOU.
So you claim to know him and even perform miracles in his name, Big deal, even satan decives people with false miracles. THe bigger question is, Does He KNOW you?
And the Bible even teaches as I said, we can lose our faith, walk away from him, shipwreck our faith, ETC.
Rick,
i guess i am blind because for the life of me i still cannot tell weather or not you are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination such as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals NON Christian?”
why is this so hard?- i dont get it.
Do you have conversations like this in real life where people can not get even the most simple and basic responses out of you? I seriously do not know wheather or not you consider Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals to be Christian or not?
My leaning is that because you are so adament that "denomonations are not of God, they are of Man" that you do NOT consider Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals to be Christians. Yet i am confused by why this is so dificult for you to say.
Is there no way to answer this question with a simple yes or no?
One more time.
“Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination such as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals NON Christian?”
what can you people expect from rick b. when the boy can't even spell right, how do you expect someone who can't spell well read and understand? there's your problem.
not_so_anonymous said...
what can you people expect from rick b. when the boy can't even spell right, how do you expect someone who can't spell well read and understand? there's your problem.
First off, read your replys, They are ripe with spelling Error, your statment above, makes no sence, as your lack of proper puncation messes it up. Then if your a mormon, as I think you are. You guys love quoting, Contention is of the Devil, but then you call me names. Proves your just like your father. Rick b
rick b said...
not_so_anonymous said...
what can you people expect from rick b. when the boy can't even spell right, how do you expect someone who can't spell well read and understand? there's your problem.
First off, read your replys, They are ripe with spelling Error, your statment above, makes no sence, as your lack of proper puncation messes it up. Then if your a mormon, as I think you are. You guys love quoting, Contention is of the Devil, but then you call me names. Proves your just like your father. Rick b
August 21, 2006 5:26 PM
HMMMMMMM??????? this is what i said
not_so_anonymous said...
what can you people expect from rick b. when the boy can't even spell right, how do you expect someone who can't spell well read and understand? there's your problem.
August 21, 2006 4:03 PM
UMMM i think i've made my point rick b. it does not make sense to you, because again, you can't SPELL the word SENSE or PUNCTUATION. And my FATHER is YOUR FATHER too.
“Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denomination such as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals NON Christian?”
Why are you making it a manipulative question? This is manipulation because it's a closed-end question with no room for explanation. Furthermore, Rick has answered your question, why are you not satisfied with it?
You say that this is not a doctrinal issue, but it is! You call yourselves Christians, yet you don't even use the bible to back yourselves up, and when you do, you take it way out of context. My question is: why does this matter to you? You're just going to manipulate what he says anyway. Why? Because that's the way you are! A friend of mine says, "Religion is a sure path to Hell." I agree with him. Why? Because it's true. When man tries to reach God by creating rules to live by (something I've seen from responses from Mormons), then you're not really following Jesus. Jesus has laid out what we need in order to be reached by him. It's clear and simple. Read the Bible and figure it out for yourselves. Oh, and don't forget to pray for understanding in doing so.
So you admit your father is the devil, sorry but he is not my father or my brother. rick b
Roaming,
You just don't like the question but it is a valid question since Rick set the standard.
Roaming Stated:
Why are you making it a manipulative question? This is manipulation because it's a closed-end question with no room for explanation. Furthermore, Rick has answered your question, why are you not satisfied with it?
Wer62 Replies
He said that Mormons are not Christians based on differences in doctrine. He then went off to name a few. My point is if doctrinal differences make the difference between Christian or Non-Christian that is fine as long as you are willing to call everyone by the same standard.
Rick has stated also that those that follow the Bible are Christians. That is different than Doctrinal differnces. So which is it? Rick is confusing in this matter. My point is that there is a dictionary and it says that Christians, just as my original article states, are those that follow Christ.
It is simple logic. If you exclude one based on a doctrinal differences then you "MUST" exclude any other religious denomination based on the same standard no matter how small the doctrinal difference is. A doctrinal difference is a doctrinal difference. Since there is only ONE Jesus Christ there can only be ONE doctrine. Rick set the standard and I am asking him to live by that standard and be man enough to back it up or change his mind. He is caught and does not know how to get out of it so he writes long articles to attempt to change the subject from the simplistic topic of doctrinal differences to specifics he does not agree with. He mentioned the Trinity for example, there are many protestant religoius groups that do not believe in the Trinity. In fact has been a point of debate since The Council at Nicea 325AD. This in my opinion does not invalidate those groups as NON Christian as they are attempting to follow Christ.
Roaming States:
You say that this is not a doctrinal issue, but it is! You call yourselves Christians, yet you don't even use the bible to back yourselves up, and when you do, you take it way out of context.
Wer62 Replies:
Excuse me? I have used the Bible in most cases. In fact when the subject warrants it I use it exclusively. This is not a deep doctrine thread nor was it meant to be. High level conversation can make the point too. Example, I mentioned the Trinity and the Council of Nicea without going into endless diatribes of text.
Roaming States:
You're just going to manipulate what he says anyway. Why? Because that's the way you are!
Wer62 Replies:
I learned it all from Rick as he is the king of twisting context as well as judge over this world. Please. I expected better from you Roaming. As you know I could and now will say this applies to you NON Denominational members who.
Roaming Stated:
Religion is a sure path to Hell." I agree with him. Why? Because it's true. When man tries to reach God by creating rules to live by (something I've seen from responses from Mormons), then you're not really following Jesus.
Wer62 Responds:
Wow, do you know what you just said? I doubt it. What you said is you don't need to follow the rules to get to Christ. There are numerous scriptures that talk about enduring to the end, work in relation to grace all of which are denied. Never once is Trinity mentioned in the scriptures talk about following the doctrines of man. Through all this I still do not call you a NON Christian.
Christ even set a standard for his Church laid on the foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Something totally ignored by the NON Denominational membership.
So Roaming take your own advice and, Read the Bible and figure it out for yourselves. Oh, and don't forget to pray for understanding in doing so.
Wer62
Rick are you ignoring my question or just refusing to answer.
Let me recap for you "So Rick, you are stating if they deny the Bible they are non Chrisian. This is your definition of Christian?"
Wer62
rick i attend AG church. So, yeah we have the same FATHER. But your right, i don't know who's FATHER You have.
Rick,
Are you going to answer my question: “Are you willing to call all people who belong to a religious denominations NON Christian?”
Wer62
Mindy Said
mindy said...
whew Ed what a move, i just had my internet connected. i came here to see what's going on and boy alot has happend i see. i have kept you and your family in my prayer's, and i am happy to hear your father is out of the wood's per'se. although doctor's tell you your father has less then a year to live, i beg to differ, our which art in heaven has the last say in that! until then keep your chin up high!
Wer62 Replies
Thanks for the prayers. I really appriciate it. I hope your move went well. Feel free to join in the frey..
Wer62
not_so_anonymous said...
Ed: I am pleased to hear that your father is doing better. I know how much a drain that can be.
August 21, 2006 7:16 AM
Wer62 Replies
Thank you, While it is a drain that is what families are for.
Wer62
not_so_anonymous said...
i attend AG church
Wer62 Inquires:
What is an AG church?
Wer62
wer62 AG= Assemblies of God church. I am Pentecostal. But not a perfect one.
Ah.. Did we happen to speak in person?
Wer62
No wer62 we have not, But it would be a pleasure to meet you someday. I like the way you conduct yourself, Although we may have our differences when it come's to our belief's. But that is all good! I am from Miami Fl.
not so Anon Stated:
Although we may have our differences when it come's to our belief's. But that is all good! I am from Miami Fl.
Wer62 Replies:
It is funny you started posting when you did. I spoke to a Pentecostal about the time you started posting at work. I sent him this blog via e-mail per his request. I will drop by and see him tommorow and let him know you are here too. We had a long discussion about doctrine and I agree we have our differences but each are respectful of the other.
As for Miami FL. I will be taking a trip to Lakeland Fl. sometime in the near future. That is where my dad's residence actually is. I will most likely be packing some of his things and preparing his place for sale. I know that Lakeland is not exactly close to Miami (proably close to 3 or 4 hour drive) but I scuba dive and may be able to meet you someplace half way? (there is no diving in Lakeland) My e-mail address is in my profile. E-mail me directly and I will be glad to let you know when I will be in Florida.
Wer62
Update for Just Curious and Rick:
I am about 1/10th of the way finished on my article God and Man - An LDS perspective.
I have the Trinity portion finished and I am breaking the topic down into several areas.
Trinity Examined:
Do LDS Believe Man May Become Gods?
God - Everlasting to Everlasting - A look at God as Man
God Body or Spirit (John 4:24)
Are God and Christ Separate Beings?
Are LDS Polytheists?
This is more than origially asked for but it will be required and come up anyways so I want to be as complete as posible. Please be patient it will take awhile to write all this. I am sure other things will probably come up as well. At some point I may just decide to break this into several articles instead of one. Suggestions welcomed...
Wer62
Ed: You should know that the person that says that they are from Miami has been using my "not_so_anonymous" out here. I thought you should know that they have been deceitful. I started posting under that name and then they have taken the name and pretended to be me. It is getting old.
Not_So_Anonymous said...
Ed: You should know that the person that says that they are from Miami has been using my "not_so_anonymous" out here.
Wer62 Replies:
When a system such as this allows "Other" and "Anonymous" postings can one really call it their name unless they register it and login under that ID? If you truly want to be known by this name Register it, Then if someone copies you everyone will know. Otherwise you could just be anyone?
Wer62
Ed, I have answerd your questions about 7 times now. You guys simply dont like the answer. Here is my very last answer to your question, and why RG and I feel it is manuplation on your part.
LDS are not a Christian Denomnation. You might feel You are, But the So called Protestent Groups and others in a general sence do not agree. While their might be people in those Groups who feel you are, the general sense is you are not.
You guys want me to either answer Yes or No, with no reason for either given. If I dont give a reason, you guys can twist what I say to make it suit your needs. Sadly I did not do that.
If I answer yes, and leave it at that, then my Answer of Yes, Mormonism is not a Christian religion, you can Use my answer of yes to include ALL these other groups. If I answer No, but leave it at that, then you will say I must change my Stance on Mormons.
So As I keep saying, Anyone who denys they Bible is not a believer. Final answer. Rick b
Rick, dude, this is not that complicated.
I AM NOT ASKING YOU IF LDS ARE A CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION. I am asking you if you consider Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals to be NON Christians.
Since when is asking someone if they consider Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals to be Christians or not manipulative? I can hardly think of a more simple, basic, common and reasonable question to ask here. I could walk up to virtually anyone at work, at the store, on the street, believer or non-believer and ask them that question and get a simple answer in seconds. What is the big deal?
Ricks comment: You guys want me to either answer Yes or No, with no reason for either given.
No Rick, I am actually very curious and eager to hear your reasoning on the matter. I think it would be very interesting to see how you back up your answer either way. But first we need to know where the heck you stand on the matter and that is where the YES or NO comes in handy. So do you consider Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals to be NON Christians in your view?
Roaminggnome, since you feel so sure that Rick has already answered the question here maybe you could tell us the answer since I am having such a difficult time deciephering it from Ricks own words. Does Rick consider Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbytarians, Lutherens, Quakers, Pentacostal, and Evangelicals to be NON Christian?
I had no idea this would be such a brain teaser. I think what is really going on here is that Rick is being forced to actually THINK and REASON through his stance on the matter. If he continues to do so he might actually learn something for a change.
rick stated:
Ed, I have answerd your questions about 7 times now.
Wer62 Replies
Rick, You have not answered the question: You simply listed a bunch of doctrinal differences.
You stated that the LDS members are not Christian based on doctrinal differences. Are you willing to call anyone that does not fully agree with your doctrine non Christian?
Rick, you set the standard to tell me I am not Christian based on Doctrinal differences I did not. So are you going to judge all the same or not? Be a man, answer the question or admit you have been caught being a hypocrite.
I have no problem telling people that the LDS Church is the true Church authorized by God. It is the most correct of any other Church out there for teaching what Christ taught and I believe that Christ died for my sins and he authorized Prophets and Apostles to lead his Church in modern times as he did when he was crucified. As such since we follow Christ we are Christians. I am also willing to state that all Churches have some truth therefore all Christian Church members are "Christians".
You on the otherhand stated that because of Doctrine I am not even though we follow Christ. Do you judge all denominations on the same principal? Yes or No?
If you do you MUST exclude all that do not believe just as you believe.
Just be man enough to say either you were wrong, or that you discount all religious groups that do not believe exactly like you do are not Christians. If you truly believe that doctrinal differnces are that important what is the problem?
rick stated:
So As I keep saying, Anyone who denys they Bible is not a believer. Final answer. Rick b
Wer62 Replies
So now you are going to change the standard to those that follow the Bible instead of doctrinal differences!
Rick, We do not deny the Bible, We have it as part of our 4 standard works. You of course know this. So are the LDS Christians since we use the Bible too? Doesn't seem you are making a very good case against the LDS being Christians.
rick stated:
LDS are not a Christian Denomnation. You might feel You are, But the So called Protestent Groups and others in a general sence do not agree. While their might be people in those Groups who feel you are, the general sense is you are not.
Wer62 Replies
Talk about avoiding the question, It matters not what other people think, it matters what you think about the standards you have set for the LDS Church and how they compare to other religions. You are the one that made the statements of doctrinal differences and now change it to those that deny the Bible.
Me personally, is those that deny Christ, but hey that is just me.
rick stated:
You guys want me to either answer Yes or No, with no reason for either given. If I dont give a reason, you guys can twist what I say to make it suit your needs. Sadly I did not do that.
Wer62 Replies
What is sad is you cannot stand by your own words. That is what is sad. I prefer you don't answer it shows how you do not think things through very well. Your flawed logic and willingness to sacrifice your integrity just to get the percieved in your mind victory. In fact you lost this when you attacked the LDS Church on Doctrinal differences. So Rick, what now? You still do not believe the LDS are Christians and I am OK with that personally since you don't have a clue what you even say about others much less present any kind of a case against the LDS being NON Christian. You just strenthened my argument and for that I say "Thank you"
Wer62 Replies
As you have said to me, I love it when they (you) don't answer the question it makes my case stronger. The difference is that I can answer for the LDS and choose not to, you cannot because you think you will look bad doing so. How sad for you.
Wer62
BTW. Roaming, you did not answer any of my questions. Are you avoiding me?
Not_so_Anonymous 2 (hereby known by me as NSA2)
Thank you for your kind invitation. If we can exchange e-mail addresses I will let you know when I am going to be in Florida.
My profile has an e-mail button, just e-mail me and I will be happy to get in touch with you. I will keep your e-mail private.
Just Curious, Did we lose you?
Wer62
I am glad that we got the name thing worked out. However, "not_so_anonymous" is not that common. I have used it for awhile. I have never had anyone use it by accident before. I am just glad that it is worked out now.
I apologize for enter the blog question about Mormon's being Christian or not late in the game.
Mormons are as much Christians as Jehovah Witnesses are [Neither are Christian]
They both preach a different Christ. Question: Does the Mormon faith teach Jesus as fully God and fully man? Answer: It does not. It teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, the father, and Mary [half man and half God].
To enter the other debate about denominations. Anyone regardless of which church they attend who claims faith in Jesus and supports their beliefs from only the Bible used in context is Christian, period.
jonathan said...
I apologize for enter the blog question about Mormon's being Christian or not late in the game.
Wer62 Replies:
Better Late than never.... First let me say, welcome to Mormonism - Fact Over Fiction.
jonathan said...
Mormons are as much Christians as Jehovah Witnesses are [Neither are Christian]
Wer62 Replies
Really.... What is your Definition of Christian?
jonathan said...
To enter the other debate about denominations. Anyone regardless of which church they attend who claims faith in Jesus and supports their beliefs from only the Bible used in context is Christian, period.
Wer62 Replies:
Wow.. you would put a muzzle on God? By saying that the Bible is the only "word" of God leaves no room for prophets, apostles and puts a muzzle on God. Even if Christ himself were to show up he would have nothing more to say?
There are many good words of Christ, The Early Church Fathers, the Apocrypha (when used with decernment) and the Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few. You would "discount" these religoius writtings. I agree that the Bible as it stands today has enough for salvation but out of the mouth of two or more witnesses the truth shall be know. The stick of Judah and the Stick of Joseph will become one. These things are totally ignored by the Biblecultist. The trinity doctrine itself is doctrines of man using over 44 scriptures mostly out of context and you want to "judge" the LDS on context.
If you are judging Christianity on the Books you read (i.e. The Bible) you are misguided. I judge Christianity on those that follow Christ.
Wer62
You should have nothing but Jesus. I mean, come on, what more is there? The answer is nothing. It would not be bad for me to have only Jesus.
Next, the question you asked cannot be answered with a simple yes or no. Rick has defined for you what you need to know; IT'S A STANDARD OF HIS BELIEF!!!!! If you want to hear my answer. Those who are in religious denominations, who follow only the Word of God, the Holy Bible, can be Christian. You don't need prophets to prophesy, you don't need all that other stuff that you mentioned. You're putting a muzzle on God by thinking that you do! How? Simple, you're making it look like God can't work through one who doesn't generally prophesy. You want a prophet? Look for someone who has the gift of prophesy. You want an apostle? Plant a church.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ed, you said in response to my post:
Roaming Stated:
Why are you making it a manipulative question? This is manipulation because it's a closed-end question with no room for explanation. Furthermore, Rick has answered your question, why are you not satisfied with it?
Wer62 Replies
He said that Mormons are not Christians based on differences in doctrine. He then went off to name a few. My point is if doctrinal differences make the difference between Christian or Non-Christian that is fine as long as you are willing to call everyone by the same standard.
Rick has stated also that those that follow the Bible are Christians. That is different than Doctrinal differnces. So which is it? Rick is confusing in this matter. My point is that there is a dictionary and it says that Christians, just as my original article states, are those that follow Christ.
It is simple logic. If you exclude one based on a doctrinal differences then you "MUST" exclude any other religious denomination based on the same standard no matter how small the doctrinal difference is. A doctrinal difference is a doctrinal difference. Since there is only ONE Jesus Christ there can only be ONE doctrine. Rick set the standard and I am asking him to live by that standard and be man enough to back it up or change his mind. He is caught and does not know how to get out of it so he writes long articles to attempt to change the subject from the simplistic topic of doctrinal differences to specifics he does not agree with. He mentioned the Trinity for example, there are many protestant religoius groups that do not believe in the Trinity. In fact has been a point of debate since The Council at Nicea 325AD. This in my opinion does not invalidate those groups as NON Christian as they are attempting to follow Christ.
The issue with your thought is that Rick is holding everyone to the same standard: Anybody who denies the Bible is not a Believer. There's no room for argument here. The statement is loud and clear for me.
The problem here is that so many "doctrines" have been changed to fit what the man who believes to be true isn't. Catholics have changed their bible to include books that don't exist in the original text. As for the others, I can't say; I don't know enough about them. The problem lies in which "doctrine" lies the truth? (This is a rhetorical question.) I've found where the truth is because there doesn't seem to be anything else out there that makes more sense. That, and I know God spoke to me about where he wanted me and that's right where I am. But, when you start saying things like "By saying that the Bible is the only 'word' of God leaves no room for prophets, apostles and puts a muzzle on God" you start putting rules on your faith that don't need to be there. Don't tell me this isn't a rule. You believe that you have to have prophets and apostles in order to have a relationship with God, that's what that statement tells me and you are wrong for believing so.
Roaming States:
You say that this is not a doctrinal issue, but it is! You call yourselves Christians, yet you don't even use the bible to back yourselves up, and when you do, you take it way out of context.
Wer62 Replies:
Excuse me? I have used the Bible in most cases. In fact when the subject warrants it I use it exclusively. This is not a deep doctrine thread nor was it meant to be. High level conversation can make the point too. Example, I mentioned the Trinity and the Council of Nicea without going into endless diatribes of text.
Again, you have taken out of context my original intention. My intention here was pointing out that you do take things out of context, and you use the bible to manipulate it to your intention when you do.
Roaming States:
You're just going to manipulate what he says anyway. Why? Because that's the way you are!
Wer62 Replies:
I learned it all from Rick as he is the king of twisting context as well as judge over this world. Please. I expected better from you Roaming. As you know I could and now will say this applies to you NON Denominational members who.
Way to go, blaming others for your own issues. Next, your expectation of me is way too high, bring down the bar a bit or you may be disappointed again. Oh, and "who" what?
Roaming Stated:
Religion is a sure path to Hell." I agree with him. Why? Because it's true. When man tries to reach God by creating rules to live by (something I've seen from responses from Mormons), then you're not really following Jesus.
Wer62 Responds:
Wow, do you know what you just said? I doubt it. What you said is you don't need to follow the rules to get to Christ. There are numerous scriptures that talk about enduring to the end, work in relation to grace all of which are denied. Never once is Trinity mentioned in the scriptures talk about following the doctrines of man. Through all this I still do not call you a NON Christian.
Christ even set a standard for his Church laid on the foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Something totally ignored by the NON Denominational membership.
Truth is, we don't ignore the fact that there are regular people out there who have the gifts of the spirit. One of them is the gift of prophecy. We practice it all the time to edify the body. What do we need a title for? As for apostles, we've sent many apostles from our church. After all, an apostle is "a sent one."
And, I’m right. You don’t need rules to get to Christ, all based upon your interpretation of my post. The fact of the matter is that we can’t get to Christ, especially since he already came. He comes to us.
These numerous scriptures that talk about enduring to the end, and work in relation to grace that you speak of, what they’re talking about aren’t rules. They speak of an endurance against sin. And the work, is the work that God has laid down for us, but still no rules there. Not to mention that the work and the endurance isn’t the issue here. The issue here is where are the rules? The rules are the ten commandments. Try following those. If you’re honest, you’ll say and know that you can’t, and therefore, can not survive without God. And, if you look into those, you’ll find that if you break one, you break them all.
Wer62, I did take the time to read your response to my concerns about the LDS church
I don't want to counter each point you brought out, but let me respond to the main contention you have with my statements.
1.Faith/works
2.Muzzle on God
3.Ignoring Divinity of Jesus
1.Works do not save, but are evidence of salvation. Failure to produce the evidence of salvation [works] would diminish faith and eventually kill it. However, remember, Jesus did the work on the Cross. Do you minimize the value of the Blood of the Son of God?
2.Even if Christ himself were to show up he would have nothing more to say? Christ did show up here on earth and if he had more to say he would have said it when he was here, the second time he comes it is for His people and to reign and rule over earth. In short, Jesus has told us everything we need to know all ready. It is simple, Believe in Me and Come follow Me by keeping My commandments of loving God and loving one another.
3.I did notice you ignored my question about the deity of Jesus? Is Jesus fully God? What is the current reveal truth about the composition of Jesus, Fully God, 50/50, fully man, or is he Fully God and Fully man? The nature of Jesus is central to being a Christian. Anyone who chases another Jesus is not Christian.
Roaming Stated:
The issue with your thought is that Rick is holding everyone to the same standard: Anybody who denies the Bible is not a Believer. There's no room for argument here. The statement is loud and clear for me.
Wer62 Replies:
Great, then we are in agreement. The LDS believe in the Bible and therefore are Christians. Thanks for clearing that up..
Wer62
Ed,
I believe that you're the one dodging questions, now. I've asked several questions I have not gotten answers for yet. What's going on?
Roaming Said...
You should have nothing but Jesus. I mean, come on, what more is there? The answer is nothing. It would not be bad for me to have only Jesus.
Wer62 Replies:
Wow.. Really.. You better look again at your scriptures. Jesus has commanded us to pray unto the Father. Therefore only Jesus is not enough in the fact that Jesus is subject to the Father and has only done what the father has shown him. (scriptrual references upon request) I agree however that Jesus in our advocate to the Father and that we cannot achieve heavenly glory without him. He after all died on the cross to pay for our sins. We however MUST have faith in Jesus Christ and repent to be given his grace.
For additional information on what we believe Christs role in salvation is see the following artical: Who Says the LDS are Saved by Works?">
Roaming Stated:
Way to go, blaming others for your own issues. Next, your expectation of me is way too high, bring down the bar a bit or you may be disappointed again. Oh, and "who" what?
Wer62 Replies:
Who? was suppose to be "Too".. Sorry for the typo.. As for blaming others, I am not "blaming others, I am just sick of hearing "out of context" and no proof to back it up. That argument goes both ways. Instead of hearing about "out of context" tell me "why it is out of context" something neither you are rick have successfully done.
Roaming States:
The problem here is that so many "doctrines" have been changed to fit what the man who believes to be true isn't.
Wer62 Replies:
Except the LDS Church doesn't change its doctrine, like in the case of the Trinty debate, we go back further than the Nicene Creed to a "more original teaching" on the subject one supported by the "Early Church Fathers" and mainstreme groups state WE are the ones changing doctrine. I find it interesting that most protestant groups (not all) follow a pagan ruler that declared himself a bishop. Somthing defintitely addressed by the Early Church Fathers stating the preisthood is not an honor one can take upon themselves. We believe that honor lies with Jesus Christ. We do all things by "His" authorization. Christ is the head of "ALL" things concerning this Earth.
Now here is the Million Dollar Question. If there are so many doctrines. Catholic and LDS being ones you obviously do not agree with, what makes your belief system better than mine?
We both believe Christ died or our Sins. We both believe he rose on the 3rd day. We both believe in the Bible as scripture, These are criteria you guys set.
To me Christian is simply a beleif in Jesus Christ. Pure and Simple. It is people like you and rick that want to add to this defintion and then say that NON Demonminational body of Christ is the only way to go when in fact all Christian denominations fall in the category of "body of Christ"
Who died to leave you in charge. Jesus.. I don't think he placed you or rick in the preisthood seat to judge anyone.
Wer62
Original Question: Are Mormons Christian?
Doctrines of Trinity, belief in modern prophets, and denominations do not save anyone. Only one's profession of faith that Jesus Christ was in fact born as the promised Messiah, died on the cross for all of mankind sins as a substitution for mankind's punishment, and in His bodily resurrection and ascension into heaven. Anyone that believes this is Christian. Why anyone would want to place their church affilition as their religion is beyond me. Why do Mormons identify themselves as such and not as Christians. When asked your religion, what do you say?
Do you say I am Baptist. I am Mormon. I am Catholic. Or do you say I am Christian.
jonathan said...
Doctrines of Trinity, belief in modern prophets, and denominations do not save anyone. Only one's profession of faith that Jesus Christ was in fact born as the promised Messiah, died on the cross for all of mankind sins as a substitution for mankind's punishment, and in His bodily resurrection and ascension into heaven. Anyone that believes this is Christian.
Wer62 Replies:
Jonathan, I couldn't agree more. Anyone who is "attempting" to follow Christ is in my opinion a Christian. (I say attempting because we all fall short of the glory of God). I am happy to see that you are viewing this as I am.
jonathan said...
Why anyone would want to place their church affilition as their religion is beyond me. Why do Mormons identify themselves as such and not as Christians.
Wer62 Replies:
It really depends on how the question is worded. If the question is as it states: If someone asks if I am a Christian then I do say "Yes, I am a Christian." If the question is what church do you go to, then I say "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" It still gets that the Church is followers of Jesus Christ. That is how I answer the "questions". In any event all churches that profess Jesus Christ are Christian. I exclude nobody from this distinction. I take exception to those that do. Thus the article,
for those that say I am not a Christian, I have to wholeheartly disagree.
Wer62
Another Perspective
Three of my beliefs are that Joseph Smith, jr. is a false prophet, the uselessness of modern temple ceremony, and the fables found in the Book of Mormon.
If I hold these beliefs am I a Mormon? Of course not.
The reason many do not think that most Mormons are Christians is that some of their stated beliefs move beyond and oppose many of the ideals of the Christian mainstream.
Can a Mormon be a Christian? I can not answer that; each person is different.
This question is really a proxy question, are Mormons a part of the Kingdom of God? Jesus said it was easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. [Matthew 19:24; Mark 10:25; Luke 18:25]
It is possible for a Mormon to be a Christian, but is it likely?
Remember Nothing is impossible for God.
Post a Comment