Eugene Seaich has pointed out that:
The Greek word "pneuma" which is translated as spirit in John 4:24 also means "life" or "breath". The King James Version of Revelation 13:15, for example renders the word "pneuma" as life. Thus "God is life" or "God is breath of life" are alternative translations of this verse. John 6:63 also uses the Breath word "pneuma": the words that I speak unto you a, they are [pneuma]" Although most version render this as "spirit" the following phrase "and they are life" clarifies the meaning as does the context. [see John 4:10, 14; 6:35, 40, 47-48, 51] Words are not "spirit" in the sense we normally think of spirit, but are a spiritual source of eternal life when believed. In the same way, God is not "a spirit" but a spiritual source of eternal life to those who worship him in spirit and truth. To believe otherwise is to believe the absurd notion that we must in some way leave our bodies to worship him since "they that worship him must in some way leave our bodies to worship him in spirit". [John 4:24]The original Greek says only that "God is spirit" (pneumae ho theos), i.e. spiritual in nature, the noun being anathrous (without the definite article). As Raymond E. Brown - undoubtedly the world's leading scholarly authority on John's Gospel - explains, "This is not an essential definition of God, but a description of God's dealings with men, it means that God is spirit toward men because he gives the spirit (xiv 16) which begets them anew". [Anchor Bible, John, p. 172] There are in fact two other such descriptions in John's writing, "God is light" [1 John 1:5], and "God is love" [1 John 4:8], though no one has argued that God is a light or a species of love!. In short, one must worship the Father through the Spirit which he has given to the Church [John 14:16], there being no hint of suggestion that he is himself "a spirit" [Eugene Seaich, Ancient Texts and Mormonism, p. 26]
Some has also cited Alma 22:9-10 as proof that God is a spirit, but as with John 4:24 the context does not justify this meaning. This verses speak of God as the "Great Spirit", which was apparently a title for God among the Lamanites. Aaron, who know that a lesson on the nature of God could come later, was merely using a term for deity that the King of the Lamanites was familiar with. Joseph Smith also used the title "Great Spirit" as a title for God when teaching the American Indians. [History of the Church, 5:480] Both Joseph Smith and Aaron used the same teaching technique used by Paul on Mars Hill [Acts 17:22-28] to teach the gospel to men unfamiliar with the true God. Note that Aaron also teaches, as Paul, that we were created in God's image [Alma 22:12; Acts 17:28-29] and that Christ was God's Son. [Alma 21:7; Acts 17:31]
Although there is a real sense in which God may be said to be a Spirit [Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 319, and Doctrines of the Restoration, p. 31], man must also be considered a spirit in the same sense. [Job 32:8; Eccl. 12:7; 1 Cor 6:17; Philemon 25; D&C 93:33] Spirits are not an immaterial vaporous essence that fills the immensity of space, but personages with form like our tangible bodies. [see 1 Nephi 11:11; Ether 3:16; D&C 77:2; LDS Bible Dictionary p. 776]
Latter-day Saints believe that the real essence of man is his spirit, and although it might be proper to say that man is a spirit, it would be more correct to say man is a soul since the spirit and the body together are "soul of man". [D&C 88:15] Although we often think of the mortal body as the tangible substance and the spirit as the intangible being with in the body, the spirit is substance also. Our spirit bodies are made of a more refined substance that cannot be handled or felt in the physical realm. [D&C 129:1-7; 131:7-8]
Jesus taught the apostles after the resurrection that they could verify that he was both spirit and body "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones" as he had. By touching the wounds in his hands and feet, they confirmed that he was not only the spirit of the crucified Lord but a bodily resurrected being with "flesh and bones". [Luke 24:36-39; John 20:27] We believe as Paul taught that a resurrected being rises a "spiritual body" [1 Cor 15:44; D&C 88:27] having both a spirit and body "restored to their proper and perfect frame". [Alma 40:23] When we realize that Jesus did only that which had seen his Father do [Jon 5:19; Teachings, p. 312], it is reasonable to conclude that the Father also has a glorified body of flesh and bones.
Modern revelation provides a final clear witness that God has a glorified and immortal body in which is housed his spirit. Joseph Smith instructed us that, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones and tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us". [D&C 130:22] This knowledge is called the greatest truth of eternity by Bruce R. McConkie [Doctrines of the Restoration, p. 48] for it confirms that we are truly created in the image of God and are his spirit offspring. [Acts 17:28-29] As such we have the potential to become like him [1 John 3:2] in the eternities and thereby gain eternal life [John 17:3; 1 John 5:20; see also Doctrines of the Restoration, pp. 31, 34
9 comments:
Ed,
Again your logic is plausible, when interpreting the word translated as spirit or breath or life. Yet no where in the Bible is it directly stated that Heavenly Father has a body of Flesh and Bones.
This belief is the sole property of Joseph Smith, JR according to his testimony of the first vision, which he alone witnessed. Others like Stephen in Acts chapter 7 refer to God as the "glory of God" no mention of a physical body. If Heavenly Father has a body of Flesh and Bones why has no other Prophet, ancient or modern, outside of Joseph Smith, JR. ever directly stated it?
jonathan said...
Again your logic is plausible, when interpreting the word translated as spirit or breath or life. Yet no where in the Bible is it directly stated that Heavenly Father has a body of Flesh and Bones.
Wer62 Responds
First, Thank you for your kind words concerning the plausibility of the translation. That stated; let me respond with a few verses that will support my viewpoint.
Genesis teaches clearly that we man was created in both the image and likeness of God [Gen 1:26-27]. A few chapters later , we are told that Adam's son, Seth, resembled Adam in the same manner, using the identical Hebrew words translated in the King James Version as: "in his own likeness" and "after his own image". [Gen 5:3] It is clear that we must resenble God and his Son just as mortal sons physically resemble their fathers.
Those that believe God is an "immaterial being" have a difficult time explaining away we, as men, are made in the "similitude of God" the Father [James 3:9] if not in a physical sense.
Paul applied the same literal meaning to these words by explaning that as man "is the image and glory of God" so "the woman is the glory of the man" [1 Cor 11:7]
The Old Testament describes Jacob's encounter with God, stating that he did see "God face to face" [Gen 32:30] and that God spoke to Moses "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." [Ex 33:11] We are also told that "Enoch walked with God." [Gen 5:22-24] How could this possibly be, unless God ad a bodily shape like that of man?
The New Testament also confirms that Christ is in the "image of God [2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3] and the "form of God". [Phil 2:6] It further tells us that in the resurectio our vile bodies will be made like Christ's "glorious bldy" [Phil 3:21] so that when he returns , "we shall be like him" [1 John 3:2] and "see his face". [Rev 22:4] If we were created in the similitude of both God and Chist, and Christ is an image and form like his Father, then God the Father and his Son must have coporeal bodies like ourselves.
Using Enoch (a prophet), Moses (also a prophet) words along with the words of the apostle Paul I would not say prophets other than Joesph Smith have said things to determine the "nature of God". Furthermore, let me address your "glory of God" comment. We will recieve "glorified or perfected bodies" in the ressurection. With modern scripture that has been unaltered over time (unlike the Bible and its numerous translations) we get a clearer picture. All the more reason a second testimony of the Book of Mormon is needed and the Lord needed to restore apostles and prophets to the Earth which are the foundation of the Church. See Article Foundations Don't Get Laid Twice or Do They
Thank you again Jonathan, I do enjoy our conversations even though I have had little time to devote to them on this blog. I appriciate your patients in waiting on my responses.
In looking at verses in the bible that use phrases like, face to face, walked with God, or right hand of God. These are phrases that indicate position and relationship to God rather than physical attributes of God, the Father. Face to face indicates intimacy with God in communication, listening to God and praising and asking Him for help. Right hand of God indicates a place of honor near God and is usually associated with Jesus only. Walked with God indicates having a constant fellowship with God and someone acting or doing the will of God. These phrases do no imply that God has a face, feet, legs, or hands made of flesh. For God, the Father, is spirit, is love, is breathe; all invisible.
jonathan said...
In looking at verses in the bible that use phrases like, face to face, walked with God, or right hand of God. These are phrases that indicate position and relationship to God rather than physical attributes of God, the Father.
Wer62 Responds:
While in some cases a non literal meaning can be applied I have to strongly disagree in this case. Unless of course you want to discredit the Bible as a reliable source of information. You failed to address Genesis at all and James 3:5 - let me requote it again for you to address.
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Genesis teaches clearly that we man was created in both the image and likeness of God [Gen 1:26-27]. A few chapters later , we are told that Adam's son, Seth, resembled Adam in the same manner, using the identical Hebrew words translated in the King James Version as: "in his own likeness" and "after his own image". [Gen 5:3] It is clear that we must resenble God and his Son just as mortal sons physically resemble their fathers.
Those that believe God is an "immaterial being" have a difficult time explaining away we, as men, are made in the "similitude of God" the Father [James 3:9] if not in a physical sense.
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Again let me point out Paul applied the same literal meaning to these words by explaning that as man "is the image and glory of God" so "the woman is the glory of the man" [1 Cor 11:7] How can this be taken any way but literal? Unless you consider women invisible? My point is that while you may believe that the face of God is not a literal statement does not make it fact based on other scriptures in the Bible. These you did not address and I am curious as to how you would explain these away?
I do not explain them away. I am sure you will not agree with my logic, but here it is.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ made the universe and is the express image of God? (see Hebrews 1:2-3) Think about what express means? Express is Exact, precise, specific. Merriam-Webster Dictionary 1st and 2nd definitions.
If so, the image of God is Jesus, Humans are created in the Image of God, but not an express image just a likeness, similitude, of God; This is especially true for women, but also applies to men. We are not all identical twins.
I am sure this short answer will probably not satisfy your concern. But sometimes the answer is just a plain and simple one that does not require mountains of evidence or long winded, allusion to breathe, speeches. Just plain and precious parts.
According to my understanding of the bible, The above post does not mean that God has a body, Jesus is a copy of that body, and we are likeness of God, the father.
Let me plainly state it. The main point is that God, the Father does not have a body. Jesus, Son of God and the express image of God does have a body. A physical form that was a template for our bodies both male and female.
Ed,
God Bless, and Merry Christmas.
Thank you Jonathan, I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas as well. May God bless your family even more in 2007.
Wer62
Yes I believe Jesus is the express image of God, just as my son is the express image of me. Just as Those that believe God is an "immaterial being" have a difficult time explaining away we, as men, are made in the "similitude of God" the Father [James 3:9] if not in a physical sense.
Paul applied the same literal meaning to these words by explaning that as man "is the image and glory of God" so "the woman is the glory of the man" [1 Cor 11:7]
So if you apply the scriptures here to what you are saying then Jesus is nothing like God the Father since Jesus had a mortal body? jesus himself said he doeth nothing lest he seeth his father do it first (paraphrased) I will quote it exactly if you request it.
That with other scriptures already posted should be sufficiant. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
Wer62
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