Was there a False Prophecy in 1st Nephi?

The claim made by detractors of the LDS faith states the following:

A false prophesy exists in 1 Nephi 19:10. It predicts the crucifixion of Jesus and the three days of darkness that would follow His death. According to Luke 23:44, there were three hours of darkness.

Detractors to the LDS faith have always come up with inventive ways to attempt to destroy the faith of others. This claim is no execption. Concerning the 3 days of darkness who is to say that one event has anything to do with the other.

The 1 Nephi 19:10 account is a prophecy of what happened on this continent and fulfilled in 3 Nephi accounting. The Book of Mormon in 3 Nephi describes a great disaster that swept over Book of Mormon lands at the time that Christ was crucified in the Old World. This destruction overthrew evil rulers and rocked a society that had become wicked, yet had some righteous people in its midst. The description of the destruction is detailed, mentioning great storms, earthquakes, and risings and sinking of the land. A terrible storm brought violent wind and whirlwinds, accompanied by unprecedented lightning and thunder. The face of the land was changed and what was once solid rock now was cracked in some places. The violent activity lasted about three hours, though it seemed longer to some. Afterwards, a "thick darkness" was present which could be "felt." "Vapor of smoke and darkness" choked or suffocated some, and thick "mists of darkness" prevented fires being lit for three days. Many cities had been destroyed by burning (six burned cities are named), by sinking into the ocean (the city of Moroni, near the coast), by being covered with earth, or, in the case of Jerusalem, by being covered with rising "waters". (Some cities remained, and basic geographical reference points were unchanged, so the great deformation of the land was largely superficial.)

The details about the destruction make excellent sense if volcanic activity was involved. Volcanic ash and fumes can result in thick, tangible, moist mists which can kill people, shut out light for days, and prevent the lighting of fires. (Those who experienced the Mount St. Helens eruption in the United States know about some of this.) Strong volcanic activity can also be accompanied by seismic activity and shifting of earth by either lava flows, ash deposits, mudslides or landslides, and the raising and lowering of portions of the land and by changes in the water levels of nearby lakes. Joseph Smith never experienced a volcano, but the Book of Mormon description is remarkably consistent with modern knowledge of volcanic activity. Therefore the Luke accounting really has no basis for what the signs were for those on this continent. Futhermore there is evidence that shows volcanic activity as described in the Book of Mormon may have occurred around 33 AD in the Mesoamerican region showing further proof of the divinity of the Book of Mormon

Outrageous Claims Concerning LDS Doctrine of Forgiveness

An LDS Reply to those who seek to shake the faith of others:

Written by Wer62

Evangelical religious groups often times will hunt for hard questions for LDS members to answer in order to shake the faith of those who may not be as secure as others. One such question was posed based on Spencer W. Kimballs book "Miracle of Forgiveness"

A central teaching in the LDS Church is that forgiveness from God is available, but it is conditioned upon repentance.* LDS Prophet Spencer W. Kimball taught that human beings are required to forgive others even though they be unrepentant.**

How is it that man is able to forgive the unrepentant, while it is "impossible" for God to do so? Is man above God in that he can forgive even the unrepentant?

*See Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 165-166; Mormon
Doctrine, Forgiveness, p. 292** See Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 282

In order to answer this question one must have a good understanding of judgment, repentance and forgiveness. God has an obligation by his own words to judge mankind so that no unclean thing may enter into heaven. We must follow those laws, ordinances, and commandments that God has set before us as well as following the Lord's judgment. (Lev 18:4) It is all too clear that judgment is God's and not man's to perform. We are to do no unrighteousness in judgment of our fellow man. (Lev 19:15-18)

We know that each man's judgment comes from the Lord. (Prov 29:26) We also know that there is a real danger when performing judgment against our fellow man for if you judge your fellow man you will be judged by the same measure. (Matt 7:1-2) The Lord's Prayer and explanation sums up forgiveness and judgment especially on judgment of man by man. You will be forgiven if you forgive those who trespass and debt against you. (Matt 6:9-15) It does not matter if the offending party has repented or not as judgment is not for man against man. We are to forgive.

This however does not negate repentance for those who humble themselves before the Lord in repentance shall have salvation. (2 Cor 7:8-10) Those who don't repent will parish. (Luke 13:5) We must repent of our sins before God. God has made it abundantly clear that judgment belongs to him and that we are to forgive our fellow man. In conclusion while this may be a hard task for us as mankind to perform I see no contradiction between the statements made by Spencer W. Kimball concerning repentance and forgiveness. Does this make man above God? No as we have not learned how to righteously, lovingly judge like God.

Who Says the LDS Teach Saved by Works?

An LDS perspective to Faith and Works and their Role in Salvation!

by Wer62

Many detractors of the LDS faith state without hesitation that the LDS teach that works save us. In response to their claim I would state that those individuals have not spent much time reading the Gospel Principals Manual. The Manual clearly states the role of works in which all Christian religions practice even if it is not admitted.

What is one of the least understood concepts is that works are required and will be accomplished through ones faith. Works by themselves however doesnÂ’t save you. A person can be a good person doing works for others, serving his fellow man and not achieve salvation. That stated however, you cannot call themselves a faith based Christian and not do good works.

First, let us define salvation. There are many Christian religions that teach salvation as in the resurrection. This simply is not the case. We all will be resurrected. So, where does salvation actually occur? Salvation occurs after the judgment. You may know you are doing the right thing while on Earth but you are not “saved” until after the judgment. We know this because there will be many that will stand before Christ and say to him, have I not prophesied in your name and done many works in your name and Jesus will answer them with I knew you not. (Paraphrased) Those people may have thought they were saved but were not. This is why a person has to study it out for themselves to be sure what they are doing is correct in the eyes of the Lord.

Now lets take about what is taught about salvation from an LDS perspective.

Chapter 12 in the Gospel Principals Manual: - TAtonementent:

Jesus Christ “came into the world … to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; that through him all might be saved”. The great sacrifice he made to pay for our sins and overcome death is called the Atonement. It is the most important event that has ever occurred in the history of mankind: “For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; … yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement”

It is clear that we teach that through Jesus Christ we might be saved. The reason the word "might" is used is because we each have a choice to make. We can choose to follow the will of our Lord or not. If we do not come to Christ we cannot be saved. I am positive that most Christian religious groups if not all will agree with this principal. The LDS teach this as demonstrated in the above cite from the Gospel Principals manual. Others topics of the Atonement mentioned in chapter 12 are the following:

• The Atonement Was Necessary for Our Salvation
• Christ Suffered and Died to Atone for Our Sins
• The Atonement and Resurrection Bring Resurrection to All

The Atonement Makes It Possible for Those Who Have Faith in Christ to Be Saved from Their Sins Christ Was the Only One Who Could Atone for Our Sins Clearly the LDS teach that the atonement of Christ is for our salvation and to pay for the price of sin but that grace is only extended to those people who accept Christ and his teachings.

Now lets talk about like personal responsibility. We each have a personal responsibility when it comes to our own salvation. In James we read, "Faith without works is dead". One must consider also how we are judged. In the Book of Revelation it is clearly stated we will be judged according to our works. Works are a direct relation to our faith. We do the works because we have faith in Christ. I believe most Christian group should agree with this principal to remain in line with the scriptures. 2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (also see Rom 7:4-6) This leads us to believe that some work must be performed. You would have to agree that Jesus Christ is our example while here on Earth and he performed works.

Lets look closer at what is taught concerning work in the LDS Church.

Work and Personal Responsibility - Chapter 27

Our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have shown us by their examples and teachings that work is important in heaven and on earth. God worked to create the heavens and the earth. He caused the seas to gather in one place and the dry land to appear. He caused grass, herbs, and trees to grow on the land. He created the sun, the moon, and the stars. He created every living thing in the sea or on the land. Then he placed Adam and Eve on the earth to take care of it and to govern the other creatures (Genesis 1:1–28).Jesus said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work” (John 5:17). He also said, “I must work the works of him that sent me” (John 9:4). We Are Commanded to Work. Work has been the way of life on earth since Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden. The Lord said to Adam, “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread” Genesis 3:19). Adam and Eve worked in the fields so they could provide for their own needs and the needs of their children (Moses 5:1). The Lord said to the people of Israel, “Six days shalt thou labour” Exodus 20:9.

In the early days of the restored Church, the Lord told the Latter-day Saints, “Now, I, the Lord, am not well pleased with the inhabitants of Zion, for there are idlers among them” D&C 68:31). All that stated work by itself cannot save us and neither is it stated as such in the Gospel Principals Manual of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are saved by grace but that stated we must follow the laws and ordinances of the Lord our Christ. We have to have Faith and without faith and works salvation is just not possible because the grace of Christ will not be extended to us. It is true grace is a free gift, why is that. No man is perfect and no matter what you do you cannot earn you way to heaven. You can't pay money; you can't just do good deeds with the idea that you will obtain salvation. It has to be understood that we do these things out of Faith because we are commanded to do so.

There are components of salvation and heavenly Father wants to see all of his Children saved. He provided a way through his son Jesus Christ to Atone for our sins that by his grace we might be saved. In return we are asked to have Faith and do the works that are asked of us to follow the laws and ordinances including repentance. Grace is extended to us after we show faith and faith will result in good works. We are commanded to "go forth and teach all nations and baptize them in the name of Christ" this in itself is a work. This cannot be denied! Work is an outward show of ones faith and faith is how we obtain grace.

The Bible Fraud

The Bible is the most misused and misunderstood book ever written. It has been used to justify all manner of impropriety, wickedness, and falsehood. Every spiritual fraud ever prepetrated in the history of Judaism or Christianity has claimed support from the Bible. On the authority of the Bible the Jews crucified Christ, stoned Stephen, and imprisoned and beat the Apostles. With the Bible as justification put Christians "unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women" (Acts 22:4). After the death of the Apostles the Bible was taught by authority of the whip and the sword. To the Reformers it became the source of priesthood authority and the final will and testament of their mute God.

A knowledge of what the Bible does and does not claim for itself is important in protecting against its misrepresentations and misuse. Let us consider one of five common frauds perpetuated in the guise of loyalty to the Bible.

The Bible is Not Infallible

The fundamental error of the Bible cultists is the doctrine of Bible infallibility. This tenet holds that the Bible must be "completely authoritative and trustworthy in all that is asserts as factual, whether in matters of theology, history, or science." [1] The Bible, it is held, "does not contain error of any kind." [2]

It has to be significant that the Bible makes no such claim for itself! There is not a single passage of scripture that can properly be used to sustain such a view. Nor is there any agreement among those maintaining such a position as to what verion of the Bible should be used or what the Bible is saying on a host of matters.

The argument simply is that the Bible cannot be trusted in all things. Because of endless textual and translation problems, many scholars concede error in our modern Bible while maintaining the infallability of the original manuscripts as written by their authors. The position is secure since none of the original manuscripts exist and no one would have to accept them even if they were found.

It is helpful to ask why the fundementlists in the Protestant word find it so necessary to argue for an infallible Bible. The answer is the Bible is all they have. They have no living prophets, they have sealed the heavens to revelation, and even if they were to find some ancient manuscript written by one of the new testament writers, they have locked themselves into a postion that would prevent them from adding it to the canon of scripture. The Bible is all they have, and as such it becomes the sole source of their authority. From the Bible they claim priesthood authority, doctrine, and the commission to preach and teach. Without it they have NOTHING. We as LDS seek the word of God not a book that has been mistranslated, misrepresented and ultimately misused by men of all centuries.

Stone, leaves, bark, skins, wood, metals, baked clay and pypyrus were all used anciently to record inspired messages. Our concern with the ancients is not the perfection with which messages were recorded but the inspiration of those messages. More importantly, we are interested in the fact that the heavens were open to them, that they had such a message to record. Knowing as we do that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, the fact that he spoke to them, however poorly they preserved it, witnesses that he can speak to to us. After all, the Bible is only black ink on white papper until the spirit of God manifests its true meaning to us; if we have obtained that, do we need to quibble over the Bible's suitability as a history and science text?

Wer62

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Footnotes:

[1] Gleason L. Archer, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties [Grand Rapids Michigan: Zondervan 1982], pg 19

[2] Haold Lindsell, The Battle for the Bible [Grand Rapids Michigan: Zondervan, 1976], pg 18

What is Considered LDS Doctrine

What is Considered LDS Doctrine

by Wer62 (Ed)

Often times when confronted with those who oppose the LDS faith system people will quote the Journal of Discourses in order to prove a point not understanding what the Journal of Discourses represents or who published it.

So what constitutes genuine Mormon Doctrine? What is the LDS equiveaient of "nihil obstat" and "imprimatur"? What do Latter Day Saints Believe? Can something be said to be "Mormon Doctrine" if any Latter-day Saint anywhere believes it? If your LDS neighbor believes that frogs cause warts, or the Earth is flat does that make those ideas LDS doctrine? If an LDS missionary believes the Earth is hallow and the lost ten tribes are hiding in it does his or her belief make it LDS doctrine? Of course not!

Virtually every religion has procedures for distinguishing the individual beliefs of its members from the official doctrines of the church, and so do the LDS. In fact among the Mormons the procedure is remarkably similar to that of many Protestant denominations. An example of the procedure can be taken from the records of the Fiftieth Semiannual General Conference of the LDS Church on October 10th 1880. President George Q cannon addressed the conference:

I hold in my hand the book of Doctrine and Covenants and also the book The Pearl of Great Price, which books contain revelations of God. In Kirkland, the Doctrine and Covenants in its original form, as first printed was submitted to the officers of the Church and the members of the Church to vote upon. As there have been additions made to it by the publishing of revelations which were not contained in the original edition, it has been deemed wise to submit these books with their contents to the conference, to see whether the conference will vote to accept the books and their contents as from God and binding upon us as a people

Subsequent Changes of content in the Standard Works of the Church have been presented similary to the membership in general. Conference to receive a sustaining vote. It is that sustaining vote, by the individual members or by their representatives, that makes the changes officially binding upon the membership as the doctrine of the Church.

When Wilford Woodruff , as President of the Church, committed the Latter-day Saints to discontinue the practice of plural marriage, his official declaration was submitted to the Sixtieth Semiannual General Conference of the Church on October 6th 1890, which was accepted unaimmously as authoritative and binding. It was that vote that made the document "official". Now this document has been added to the Doctrine and Covenants.

B.H. Roberts, a General Authority of the LDS Church summarizes the issue perhaps as well as anyone has:

The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These world include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and that are the only sources of absolute apparel for our doctrine.

Anyone claiming that the LDS Church teaches doctrine or promotes doctrine outside of these sources no matter who spoke it is inaccurate.

Wer62 (Ed)

How to Classify Fictitious Anti Mormon Apologetics

As I go through and makes posts on Mormonism - Fact Over Fiction I will attempt to classify the type of fiction the authors against Mormonism have used in order to justify their position. Often times by attacking a doctrinal point or comment the authors are stating that the LDS Church is not a Christian Religion and certainly not one authorized by God. This in effect attempt to exclude the LDS church not only as an authorized Church of Jesus Christ but from Christianity entirely

The attacks can generally be defined by category.

• Exclusion by Definition:
• Exclusion by Misrepresentation:
• Exclusion by Name-Calling: [The ad hominem exclusion]
• Historical or Traditional Exclusion:
• Canonical or Biblical Exclusion:
• Doctrinal Exclusion: (Trinity and the Nature of God)

As I write articles against fictional apologetics I will also attempt to classify what type of attack has been made against the LDS church in these categories. Doing this helps the reader understand perspective and gives greater insight to the LDS position. I would be interested in hearing from people their thoughts on the subject of classification of apologetic writing in this manner. Ideas and criticism welcomed.

Wer62 (Ed)